so... free will?

Sneer · 01-05-2009, 06:12 PM

I genuinely dont think you can. I think, if we were to go toe to toe and fling positives and negatives at eachother, i would beat you hands down. Im not saying we should all worship Rand and Objectivism, its my personal viewpoint, i dont even agree with everything she says. I dont really see how science, technology and progress is a limited perspective at all, if you would care to divulge?

cardboard adolescent · 01-05-2009, 06:31 PM

you could only beat me hands down from your own perspective. the idea of progress implies something to progress towards; i deny that there is any such thing. life will always be life, it will always be driven by suffering and fear. from my perspective. science is just the most profound expression of this fear, of a blind grappling for truth from an indifferent universe. you can draw the map of the universe with as many details as possible until it becomes so big it swallows us all, and it won't bring you a step closer to finding peace. our 'prosperity' is only possible at the cost of millions starving and working in dehumanized conditions, not to mention the destruction of the planet. not only that but it carries with it consumerist spiritual death.

Sneer · 01-05-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

you could only beat me hands down from your own perspective. the idea of progress implies something to progress towards; i deny that there is any such thing. life will always be life, it will always be driven by suffering and fear. from my perspective. science is just the most profound expression of this fear, of a blind grappling for truth from an indifferent universe. you can draw the map of the universe with as many details as possible until it becomes so big it swallows us all, and it won't bring you a step closer to finding peace.

I have to say i dont share your perspective, as we have quite emphatically concluded. But as you say, its all relative. Eternal life? A cure for AIDS? The hunt for zero energy? Darkmatter? Higgs Boson? With these discoveries is even more possibility for progression. Its my perspective that we have only taken a tiny chunk off the top of quite a huge ice berg thus far in scientific progress, thus i think progression is all but limitless.

cardboard adolescent · 01-06-2009, 05:16 AM

christ, i pray to god we never discover the secret to eternal life, we'll all be screwed.

Sneer · 01-06-2009, 06:08 AM

I have to agree with you on that one

Inuzuka Skysword · 01-06-2009, 12:59 PM

I am happy to see that there is another person who appreciates Rand on here.

Anyways as I said earlier, I share Robert Kane's view on free will. Here is a wiki that might describe it with a bit more clarification: Robert Kane (philosopher) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

His definition of free will is to be "the ultimate creator and sustainer of one's own ends or purposes." Of course, the being must be rational and not be coerced or have no compulsion. The fact is, there is no definite answer to whether free will exists or not. There isn't even a definite answer as to whether free will is compatible with determinism. However, the significance is where Kane won me over. Without free will at all there is no reason for moral responsibility. There is also no impulse for dignity, which is how we gain our self-esteem. The point is, we drown in nihilism when we don't believe in any free will. The idea of meaningless existence is so irrational and pointless. It is pointless because then there is no drive to run on except one's own feelings and emotional whims.

As for the significance of compatibility, I say that there is no compatibility. I didn't read all of Kane's book, (I only read the first half for research for my paper) and someone probably came up with the same conclusion as me. The reason I believe that there is no compatibility is because I believe that it is irrational to believe in compatibility at all. It is irrational because then one is not keeping it simple. Look at how some defend evolution or the non-existence of a god. They use Occam's razor to say that it would be pointless to "pick and choose" what irrational things to believe in. So in the case of free will, in order to be consistent and not "pick and choose," you must be an incompatibilist for free will.

I have not made up my mind on exactly where it exists, so don't ask me that. However, Kane does address the question in the second half of his book.

On the issue of objective reality, for what reason would you want to believe in subjective reality? Logic is the best we have and to just shy away and not trust it is absurd. If you don't believe in objective reality then why do you go on living? Also, Rand's metaphysical position is what I would use, but I am sure you have heard it before.

Double X · 01-06-2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

christ, i pray to god we never discover the secret to eternal life, we'll all be screwed.

I think I would kill myself out of boredom eventually...

cardboard adolescent · 01-06-2009, 04:51 PM

i've been toying with an idea for a short story based around that for a while actually; it would start with the protagonist standing atop the white cliffs of dover preparing to end his life, and the story would be told on his way down.

Inuzuka Skysword · 01-06-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

i've been toying with an idea for a short story based around that for a while actually; it would start with the protagonist standing atop the white cliffs of dover preparing to end his life, and the story would be told on his way down.

That actually sounds like a really good story...

01-05-2009, 06:12 PM	#21 (permalink)
Sneer Let it drip Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5,430	I genuinely dont think you can. I think, if we were to go toe to toe and fling positives and negatives at eachother, i would beat you hands down. Im not saying we should all worship Rand and Objectivism, its my personal viewpoint, i dont even agree with everything she says. I dont really see how science, technology and progress is a limited perspective at all, if you would care to divulge? __________________ LastFM Sneer's Emporium of Sound Fright Team radio show

01-06-2009, 06:08 AM	#25 (permalink)
Sneer Let it drip Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5,430	I have to agree with you on that one __________________ LastFM Sneer's Emporium of Sound Fright Team radio show

01-05-2009, 06:31 PM	#22 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	you could only beat me hands down from your own perspective. the idea of progress implies something to progress towards; i deny that there is any such thing. life will always be life, it will always be driven by suffering and fear. from my perspective. science is just the most profound expression of this fear, of a blind grappling for truth from an indifferent universe. you can draw the map of the universe with as many details as possible until it becomes so big it swallows us all, and it won't bring you a step closer to finding peace. our 'prosperity' is only possible at the cost of millions starving and working in dehumanized conditions, not to mention the destruction of the planet. not only that but it carries with it consumerist spiritual death.

01-06-2009, 05:16 AM	#24 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	christ, i pray to god we never discover the secret to eternal life, we'll all be screwed.

01-06-2009, 12:59 PM	#26 (permalink)
Inuzuka Skysword Existential Egoist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,468	I am happy to see that there is another person who appreciates Rand on here. Anyways as I said earlier, I share Robert Kane's view on free will. Here is a wiki that might describe it with a bit more clarification: Robert Kane (philosopher) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia His definition of free will is to be "the ultimate creator and sustainer of one's own ends or purposes." Of course, the being must be rational and not be coerced or have no compulsion. The fact is, there is no definite answer to whether free will exists or not. There isn't even a definite answer as to whether free will is compatible with determinism. However, the significance is where Kane won me over. Without free will at all there is no reason for moral responsibility. There is also no impulse for dignity, which is how we gain our self-esteem. The point is, we drown in nihilism when we don't believe in any free will. The idea of meaningless existence is so irrational and pointless. It is pointless because then there is no drive to run on except one's own feelings and emotional whims. As for the significance of compatibility, I say that there is no compatibility. I didn't read all of Kane's book, (I only read the first half for research for my paper) and someone probably came up with the same conclusion as me. The reason I believe that there is no compatibility is because I believe that it is irrational to believe in compatibility at all. It is irrational because then one is not keeping it simple. Look at how some defend evolution or the non-existence of a god. They use Occam's razor to say that it would be pointless to "pick and choose" what irrational things to believe in. So in the case of free will, in order to be consistent and not "pick and choose," you must be an incompatibilist for free will. I have not made up my mind on exactly where it exists, so don't ask me that. However, Kane does address the question in the second half of his book. On the issue of objective reality, for what reason would you want to believe in subjective reality? Logic is the best we have and to just shy away and not trust it is absurd. If you don't believe in objective reality then why do you go on living? Also, Rand's metaphysical position is what I would use, but I am sure you have heard it before.

01-06-2009, 04:51 PM	#28 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	i've been toying with an idea for a short story based around that for a while actually; it would start with the protagonist standing atop the white cliffs of dover preparing to end his life, and the story would be told on his way down.