democracy part 2

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-23-2014, 05:14 PM

so this is basically just a sort of thought experiment or to put it more bluntly an assortment of random opinions i've come to hold and a way to explore certain hypothetical questions and situations in an attempt to stave off boredom at work.

tl:dr, i don't know if i think democracy is such a good system anymore and i have questions about top-down vs bottom-up solutions towards creating an effective and efficient system. maybe some of you can either share your own thoughts or criticize mine and make me rethink them.

basically i have come to question democracy and more specifically democracy combined with capitalism. it seems to me that this will always be the perfect recipe for propaganda as a tool for wealthy people to pursue goals that will ultimately benefit them even at the overall expense of the population at large.

one of the only semi-convincing objections to this that i've encountered is the idea that in more healthy democracies like switzerland, true democratic principles at work have produced even better results than our own half-assed system here in the states. while the light amount of research i've done about the swiss system since hearing about this does lead me to believe there might be legitimate benefits to their system, at the same time i also feel that they have a very different type of situation to wrestle with than us and ultimately their problems vs our problems are not necessarily that similar that we can assume that a system that works for a relatively small country will also work for a massive superpower/borderline empire.

i also have found an interesting example of democracy ****ing up in switzerland and interestingly enough the problem stems from one of the more thoroughly democratic facets of their system. basically when they decided to ban minarets or whatever. that to me seems like basically a sort of persecution of a local minority probably because some of the natives are discontented with some of the cultural problems caused for them by their country's immigration policies. this motion was actually brought into action by a popular initiative from what i recall reading, and not as some sort of organized political agenda.

and this leads me to think that the mob mentality can often take over and go in irrational ways since normal people can't be bothered to really try to understand what a complicated mess modern civilization really is all the time and thus don't always come to the right conclusions about how to fix things. and also and probably more commonly over here in the u.s. this same mob irrationality can easily be tapped into by more powerful and charismatic agents to pursue their own agendas through the power of popularity.

and i know some people say yea but you can strictly regulate elections and campaign finance and all that but once again i go back to thinking about capitalism and the power of popular appeal. it seems like commercials are every bit as brainwashing as political ads. really it just seems weird to me to say its fine for a company to drill it into people's heads to buy their product but it's over the line for that company to try to manipulate public opinion on politics to their own benefit. both seem to have the same goal and the same basic disregard for the overall well-being of society. it really seems like inventing fake rules that you can't enforce while trying to play a board game.

and i tend to think even if you managed to take the money all the way out of political campaigns specifically the politics would still be more about slogans and popular appeal than really making logical and smart decisions. it's like having an argument around a bunch of random lower-to-middle class people. the winner will very often not have the best answer, just the biggest voice.

and then i know people say but direct democracy can work much better from the ground up but i feel that actually it would be really uncoordinated and sloppy. like if you try to design a system you almost always want to take a top-down approach because then its easier to see the full scope of what you are trying to achieve and how you're going to achieve it.

so i was wondering about possible ways to make a dictatorship actually better than democracy. cause i know they have tended to turn into an even bigger cynical nightmare but i wonder if there is a way to make a system that has a top-down approach to running a country/society without losing the overall goal of consistently improving that society instead of exploiting power for personal benefit. and that's the really hard part but i feel like it might be possible.

say the top smartest scientists, engineers, diplomats, etc get together and work out an overall strategy for successfully managing such a system. like some objective criteria are defined up front and basically to deter abuse of power the smart people might get fired if their numbers start getting ****ed up. it would have to be run by some sort of computer that basically is impartial and says oh you ****ed up bye bye. and everyone with power to act buys into it collectively cause they continue to draw power from it unless they try to exploit the system to their gain.

what do you guys think?

DwnWthVwls · 11-23-2014, 06:54 PM

I don't know much about this kind of stuff but I feel like the people are as much to blame as a system. It won't be until our culture is actually focused around education/science more than entertainment/profit that we can expect to see major changes. It's not that we aren't doing great things everyday or a leading force in technology. It's the fact that these great things are not the driving force behind our culture. We are gluttonous consumers and a resource monster who's primary function is keeping itself fed (via technological advances). Scientists have to battle against large corporations to make positive changes because it will affect their bank accounts. That just doesn't make sense to me, I understand why it happens, but it still leaves me dumbfounded.

The greatest thing about Democracy is that it gives everyone an opportunity to create and improve. The problem is: how do we handle all the creativity, filter the good from the bad, and put it to use to benefit society as a whole?

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-23-2014, 07:00 PM

yea i tend to agree with you about the people vs system point. that's why my hypothetical system only gives power to a few smart people but makes them compete with each other at the same time.

DwnWthVwls · 11-23-2014, 07:14 PM

I am completely open to a change like that. I'd love to see a counsel of 3-5 of the leading scientists in many fields in charge of our nation, and have the military, politicians, and diplomats below them.

No idea how you would even begin the process or how it would realistically function. I used to think like you, and than I realized that unless some miracle happens I will never see the kind of society I'd like to believe humans can achieve. Furthermore, I don't have the answers or understanding of how to pull something like that off so it's probably best I refrain from forming opinions about it or the current system.

I've come to accept I am a lowly middle-class citizen who just goes with the flow. I don't try to understand or change the decisions of our country mostly because none of them have ever affected me so negatively I felt a desire to do so. Life's too short to even bother. It's a piss poor defeatist attitude, but I don't care anymore. I'm just gonna do me and hopefully enjoy the 50+ years I have left. America/human nature has left me completely uninspired after 28 years of life, I have no faith left in me.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-23-2014, 07:25 PM

lol i'm not starting some kind of revolution bro i know it's not going to happen. i love going through hypothetical scenarios though.

a lot of it is psychology. really you can only expect so much from people at the end of the day. there will always be slow people who have to do ****ty jobs and resent it. there will be discontents in any machine. but if you're smart you can probably utilize people to the best of their ability and have them be reasonably happy.

a random thing that popped into my mind from today was when i was checking out at the cvs. the lady didn't hear me come in or whatever and i was going to tell her eventually that i needed help but then this manager came up and scolded her for not knowing i was there and made it really awkward. and i said to her that it's fine and i was hoping the manger would hear in my tone that i wasn't worried about it but he just stood there behind me silently and awkwardly. so i had to walk away and of course he went at her as soon as i left i'm sure. it was ****ed up too cause he was standing there making her nervous so she even messed up scanning the ****. but i know at the same time somebody probably told her stock the shelves if there's no customers and she was trying to do that and just didn't hear me come in.

that's how the system works currently the **** just rolls down hills. cause at the end of the day he's just asking too much of her and being a dick and any petty **** that goes wrong is gonna be her fault cause he needs his image clean and then his boss does him the same way etc. it's like they're reasonably smart people who understand how business works ok but don't understand people well enough to really manage them. if i was the kind of customer to get pissed at someone for that kind of **** i'd hope that i would go home and blow my brains out cause really my life must be insignificant as **** if that kind of **** would get to me.

OccultHawk · 11-23-2014, 07:35 PM

An Anarchist Critique of Democracy | The Anarchist Library

OccultHawk · 11-23-2014, 07:42 PM

Quote:

I am completely open to a change like that. I'd love to see a counsel of 3-5 of the leading scientists in many fields in charge of our nation, and have the military, politicians, and diplomats below them.

When start messing with separation of powers and checks and balances you're getting into some **** that can go wrong fast. I mean really wrong and really fast.

The Batlord · 11-23-2014, 08:16 PM

I say we start electing politicians by lottery. It'll be ****, but I'm sure it'll be pretty funny.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-23-2014, 08:57 PM

nah i'm pretty sure we need to go ahead and make robots so they can destroy our species anyway.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-23-2014, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

An Anarchist Critique of Democracy | The Anarchist Library

i might read that later but i just don't have it in me right now. you have to understand i've been up since 4:45 am this morning. but i am kind of curious how anarchists could possibly make anything work without falling back on either democracy or capitalism. you have to have some sort of system. leave people to themselves and the whole world will basically go africa.

11-23-2014, 05:14 PM	#1 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	democracy part 2 so this is basically just a sort of thought experiment or to put it more bluntly an assortment of random opinions i've come to hold and a way to explore certain hypothetical questions and situations in an attempt to stave off boredom at work. tl:dr, i don't know if i think democracy is such a good system anymore and i have questions about top-down vs bottom-up solutions towards creating an effective and efficient system. maybe some of you can either share your own thoughts or criticize mine and make me rethink them. basically i have come to question democracy and more specifically democracy combined with capitalism. it seems to me that this will always be the perfect recipe for propaganda as a tool for wealthy people to pursue goals that will ultimately benefit them even at the overall expense of the population at large. one of the only semi-convincing objections to this that i've encountered is the idea that in more healthy democracies like switzerland, true democratic principles at work have produced even better results than our own half-assed system here in the states. while the light amount of research i've done about the swiss system since hearing about this does lead me to believe there might be legitimate benefits to their system, at the same time i also feel that they have a very different type of situation to wrestle with than us and ultimately their problems vs our problems are not necessarily that similar that we can assume that a system that works for a relatively small country will also work for a massive superpower/borderline empire. i also have found an interesting example of democracy **ing up in switzerland and interestingly enough the problem stems from one of the more thoroughly democratic facets of their system. basically when they decided to ban minarets or whatever. that to me seems like basically a sort of persecution of a local minority probably because some of the natives are discontented with some of the cultural problems caused for them by their country's immigration policies. this motion was actually brought into action by a popular initiative from what i recall reading, and not as some sort of organized political agenda. and this leads me to think that the mob mentality can often take over and go in irrational ways since normal people can't be bothered to really try to understand what a complicated mess modern civilization really is all the time and thus don't always come to the right conclusions about how to fix things. and also and probably more commonly over here in the u.s. this same mob irrationality can easily be tapped into by more powerful and charismatic agents to pursue their own agendas through the power of popularity. and i know some people say yea but you can strictly regulate elections and campaign finance and all that but once again i go back to thinking about capitalism and the power of popular appeal. it seems like commercials are every bit as brainwashing as political ads. really it just seems weird to me to say its fine for a company to drill it into people's heads to buy their product but it's over the line for that company to try to manipulate public opinion on politics to their own benefit. both seem to have the same goal and the same basic disregard for the overall well-being of society. it really seems like inventing fake rules that you can't enforce while trying to play a board game. and i tend to think even if you managed to take the money all the way out of political campaigns specifically the politics would still be more about slogans and popular appeal than really making logical and smart decisions. it's like having an argument around a bunch of random lower-to-middle class people. the winner will very often not have the best answer, just the biggest voice. and then i know people say but direct democracy can work much better from the ground up but i feel that actually it would be really uncoordinated and sloppy. like if you try to design a system you almost always want to take a top-down approach because then its easier to see the full scope of what you are trying to achieve and how you're going to achieve it. so i was wondering about possible ways to make a dictatorship actually better than democracy. cause i know they have tended to turn into an even bigger cynical nightmare but i wonder if there is a way to make a system that has a top-down approach to running a country/society without losing the overall goal of consistently improving that society instead of exploiting power for personal benefit. and that's the really hard part but i feel like it might be possible. say the top smartest scientists, engineers, diplomats, etc get together and work out an overall strategy for successfully managing such a system. like some objective criteria are defined up front and basically to deter abuse of power the smart people might get fired if their numbers start getting ed up. it would have to be run by some sort of computer that basically is impartial and says oh you **ed up bye bye. and everyone with power to act buys into it collectively cause they continue to draw power from it unless they try to exploit the system to their gain. what do you guys think?

11-23-2014, 07:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	yea i tend to agree with you about the people vs system point. that's why my hypothetical system only gives power to a few smart people but makes them compete with each other at the same time.

11-23-2014, 07:25 PM	#5 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	lol i'm not starting some kind of revolution bro i know it's not going to happen. i love going through hypothetical scenarios though. a lot of it is psychology. really you can only expect so much from people at the end of the day. there will always be slow people who have to do **ty jobs and resent it. there will be discontents in any machine. but if you're smart you can probably utilize people to the best of their ability and have them be reasonably happy. a random thing that popped into my mind from today was when i was checking out at the cvs. the lady didn't hear me come in or whatever and i was going to tell her eventually that i needed help but then this manager came up and scolded her for not knowing i was there and made it really awkward. and i said to her that it's fine and i was hoping the manger would hear in my tone that i wasn't worried about it but he just stood there behind me silently and awkwardly. so i had to walk away and of course he went at her as soon as i left i'm sure. it was ed up too cause he was standing there making her nervous so she even messed up scanning the . but i know at the same time somebody probably told her stock the shelves if there's no customers and she was trying to do that and just didn't hear me come in. that's how the system works currently the just rolls down hills. cause at the end of the day he's just asking too much of her and being a dick and any petty that goes wrong is gonna be her fault cause he needs his image clean and then his boss does him the same way etc. it's like they're reasonably smart people who understand how business works ok but don't understand people well enough to really manage them. if i was the kind of customer to get pissed at someone for that kind of i'd hope that i would go home and blow my brains out cause really my life must be insignificant as if that kind of ** would get to me.

11-23-2014, 07:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	An Anarchist Critique of Democracy \| The Anarchist Library

11-23-2014, 08:57 PM	#9 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	nah i'm pretty sure we need to go ahead and make robots so they can destroy our species anyway.