Rainard Jalen

Dude, I'm totally with you on the point that these bands may be making what is essentially "good" music that is highly listenable and enjoyable. The problem for me is that, as we seem to be agreed on, the vast majority of this "New Prog" business is without a doubt highly derivative of 70s bands. I'm sure there are very worthy exceptions (there are certainly exceptions within prog metal, for that I can vouch), but as far as the derivative bands go, I want to hear something that screams out "21st Century" and not 1971.

I used to be into modern "prog" music and stuff, until it occurred to me that most of what I was hearing turned out basically to be an inferior version of something much better from decades earlier. That kinda put a dent in the whole thing for me.

Porcupine Tree I would venture to say have talent, but haven't really done anything I'd dare to even begin to call unique. And sorry but their best albums were clearly inspired by Pink Floyd whether Wilson cares to accept that or otherwise. Can't argue with a sound.

I guess what I'm saying is, I believe the real "experimental rock" of the era lies precisely in indie bands like Deerhoof, Animal Collective and so forth, who have sounds that are truly something else altogether. And I find it irritating that many diehard prog fans (not accusing you) attack indie bands because they're supposedly not cutting edge enough or "progressive", while they themselves listen to bands that lie pretty much at the apex of derivative.

Wayfarer

A lot of '60s/'70s music still remains unsurpassed, if you ask me. The vast majority of stuff coming out these days is at least somewhat derivative. Doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. People just sometimes place far too much emphasis on originality whilst virtually ignoring what really matters - whether or not it's pleasing to listen to.

I mean, hell, I'm listening to Propagandhi's "Today's Empires, Tomorrow's Ashes" right now. They're not really doing anything that a bunch of hardcore bands didn't do over two decades ago, but this is still a ****ing brilliant album.

__________________
The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so
absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.

Rainard Jalen

You know, I kinda half agree with the idea of the important thing being that something is enjoyable to listen to, but not entirely. And these are my personal reasons for saying so:

First and foremost, if I've been frequently exposed to a particular type of sound, then hearing merely another version (even a good version) of the same sort of thing just tends to begin to feel boring and tedious after a while.

Second, if I can listen to the original, prototype, pioneering version/s of the sound, why listen to an inferior derivative instead?

But thirdly, I think I find I have a personal psychological barrier when it comes to listening to highly derivative music which I wonder if anybody else has experienced? Like, it would seem somehow "purer" from an artistic perspective to listen to real inventors and pioneers rather than their mimickers.

I'm totally alright however with music that is essentially derivative, but something else of interest has been done to it in the process (such as parody, or conversion into a different genre) which gives it its own personality and idiosyncracies.

Wayfarer

Yeah, I often think the same thing, though the bands that are trying to sound like they were part of some movement that came and went decades ago, occasionally, end up releasing albums that I find more enjoyable to listen to than anything by the original bands. I mean, going back to Propagandhi - again, I can't really see how they're doing much that a handful of hardcore bands didn't already do over twenty years ago, but I'd usually rather listen to them than the vast majority of those '80s punk bands. And I'd certainly rather listen to The Mars Volta than any '70s prog band, though I guess they're putting more of a new spin on that style of music than a lot of bands these days are.

__________________
The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so
absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.

boo boo

Vice versa, theres a lot of Indie bands right now stuck in 1981.

In fact I think a lot of Indie is derivative. I can recall the many times when someone recommends a band to me only to be some crappy post punk band with pathetic Ian Curtis or David Byrne ripoff vocals. Animal Collective is one of these bands you keep saying is doing innovative things, but they sound like early 90s Flaming Lips just with what sounds like Atari 2600 sound effects, I don't see the big deal about that.

I don't think you're looking hard enough.

Only they don't sound like Pink Floyd, being influenced by and sounding like are two entirely different things.

I think Deerhoof are horrible, if the future of music really rests in the hands of some mediocre noise rock band with Yoko Ono vocals then thats very depressing.

Some new sounds are best left unexplored IMO.

While some of these bands are doing new things, I think they have done it at the cost of melody and accessibility. Yes, I am saying that these bands are less melodic and accessible than prog bands. Prog is complex but a lot of it is still very melodic. Now we have guys who skip the melody part and just want to be complex, but they don't have anywhere near the talent that prog bands do so the end result is something thats not as complex as much as its just a disorganized mess. Thats just my opinion though.

My main problem with modern Indie is I just don't think a lot of these bands are talented.

EDIT: You use quotes too much.

__________________
http://www.progarchives.com/

Rainard Jalen

Very possible. Certainly, I do not think prog in general is inaccessible at all, and your claims about melody may well be correct. But melody is not the aim of these bands. Many of Beethoven's contemporaries wrote much better minuets that he ever did, but that was because he was trying to do something else altogether. Similarly, these bands are trying to go beyond the banality of well tried-and-tested formats.

True that they are generally not instrumental virtuosi, but again, technical proficiency is not the aim and inventive/playful exploration is. And ultimately, I think "talent" is best kept as a measure of creative brilliance rather than technical prominence.

On the topic of Deerhoof though, I would like to strongly recommend you to listen to Friend Opportunity because melodically that album is unbelievable. Some of the best melody writing I've heard this half of the decade.

GravitySlips

Friend Opportunity is great, I prefer the older stuff though.

Not saying they're the "future of music" (whatever that entails), but I'd take the worst Deerhoof over anything I've heard by Porcupine Tree anytime.

boo boo

I can't even imagine forcing yourself into that kind of punishment.

Lol, whatever, different strokes for different folks.

__________________
http://www.progarchives.com/

Urban Hatemonger

I don't find Deerhoof to be any more inaccessible than say Beefheart or The Residents.

__________________

KeithMoon2112

Singing? Guitar playing? Both? What do you mean?

__________________
Gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used...