Soulflower

If this is your opinion that is fine

However

Urban I think you should take a look in the mirror because you seem to think you have this superiority above others and you come off snobbish and immature yourself in discussions at times.

You came off very snobbish in this discussion which is why I expressed my opinion the way I did. I did not cuss you out or disrespect you but I am tired of this snobbish attitude and people seem afraid to point this out to you but I am not.

I have ignored it in the past but since you wanted to bring this up I thought I point this out to you as well.

You also could do a better job in moderating the forums and maybe getting a better administration because the trolling and member attacks are appalling on this site.

I have endured it all and I am tired of it.

So are a lot of other members.

Thelonious Monkey

Urban came off as a cunt to me when I joined, but now I am gradually seeing the error of my ways. He seems to be a great mod, and a really funny guy.

Key

Urban is good people. He just has the balls to tell people that they are full of sh1t, and most of the time, those people are full of sh1t.

Urban Hat€monger ?

More rhetoric

How is comparing Janet Jackson with Cyndi Lauper snobbish?

How is pointing out there's a difference between an iconic moment and an iconic career snobbish?

How is asking you to address these points instead of labelling people or trying to discredit them before you even get to those points snobbish?

I'd very much like to see these parts you think are snobbish because I don't see any. And if I have done it I think I've done it a whole lot less than you have towards me.

At no point have I belittled you or your opinion, all I have said is 'I think you're wrong about this because of this....' which is the whole point of debate isn't it?

At no point have I tried to pass off my opinion as fact,

At no point have I tried to insult you,

I have been patient and polite to you the whole time and all I have tried to do have a civil debate with you about a subject I enjoy talking about. But the whole way through this I have had to deal with constant attacks from you about my character and my motives and you trying to paint me as some kind of troll that's victimising you while you ignore every point I make. And every time you did it I brushed it off and tried to stick to the topic in hand and hoped you'd actually get around to attempting to counter my points.

As for the moderating, I'm just one of many. People here want this place loosely moderated so that's what they get. If it was up to me I would moderate this place more strictly, but it isn't it's for the members to decide.

In my experience everybody says wants tougher moderation until the moment that they become the recipient of that new enforced moderation... then we suddenly become Nazi mods with no sense of humour. If you feel someone has crossed the line there's a report post button if someone is being abusive, but just let me remind you, it's not there because someone won't hold your opinion as truth.

And I would like to warn you I have zero interest in political threads in the lounge and never visit them so if you're being abused in those threads I wouldn't have seen it. So please don't blame me for that.

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Soulflower

The reason why I said your argument was snobbish was because you insisted that since you did not know any Janet Jackson songs that meant that she was not an Icon just because you personally don't listen to her music.

And that IS snobbish

I don't have an issue with you.

I think you are very funny and intelligent.

However,you come off snobbish in arguments (sometimes) and at times like you are perfect and no can not correct you or criticize you.


The way you present your arguments in discussions at times imply that they are superior and as if they are a fact. Even after someone pointed out to you that Janet is one of the biggest selling artists of all time with actual evidence you insisted that it was not true BUT yet I ALWAYS see you cite Wikipedia in other discussions to prove a point but since this is Janet Jackson Wikipedia is suddenly unreliable? Her sells are certified by RIAA and Soundscan which Wikipedia also uses for the top selling artist page.

So how is it not true?


I have most certainly not ignored every point you made orwhen you asked me to elaborate.

When you told me since the VERY beginning of this thread that you wanted more examples of ICONS besides my "favorites" thats exactly what I set out to do with clear examples and reasoning to back it.

And I did that just for you.

When you presented your opinions, I did the same thing. I answered and reflected on your opinions with a response but your opinions were mixed with snobbish superiority that I simply had to point out.

Its funny because I am always the one attacked on this site but even when I am actually wrong I can honestly admit that but some of you have a problem with admitting when your wrong.

Well I am not sure about the others but I am not going to sit here and kiss your ass.

I think you can do a better job in moderating the forums because the vicious personal attacks and trolling is making the forum become un-fun and a big reason why most of the older members have left and don't come here anymore.

I am sure that there are a lot of moderators but since you are a senior member I thought I point this out to you specifically. People don't want loose moderation. People think these forums need to be moderated because things are out of control and there are to many unnecessary arguments and drama. People feel they can not be open about their views and input about the forum because they feel they will be attacked because the moderators oddly allow it.

Urban Hat€monger ?

OK I'm going to give this one more chanceSee this is where I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick.

I'm not saying Janet Jackson isn't an icon because I don't like her, what I am saying is I think she isn't an icon because when I say I can't name one of her songs I'm not saying that to be snobbish, that's the genuine truth.
All I know about her is she had an album called Rhythm Nation and she released a duet with her brother in the 90s.
That's pretty much all I know.

Now take that in comparison someone who I also don't listen to either but DO consider iconic like Bob Marley. I know a lot of his most well known songs and I also know he was a hugely important figurehead in Jamaican politics. Therefore I would class him as an icon despite not having an interest in him musically.

Putting aside your own feelings towards either artist surely you can see what I am getting at now, even if you don't agree with it. I don't even want you to agree with it, I just want you to see where I'm coming from here.


Another thing I think you have got the wrong end of the stick on.
I wasn't disputing she wasn't one of the biggest selling artists, I wasn't disputing that she's sold 50 million units, of which came from RIAA & Soundscan sources.

What I was disputing was this
There is a CLAIM on there she has sold 100 million units. It even says it's a claim on wikipedia.
The source of this claim of 100 million sales comes from a regional website from her home state in a 'Local Girl Does Good' type article which has no basis and has nothing to do with RIAA and Soundscan.
THAT is the part I was disputing.

I've no doubt a lot of the other artists on there have similarly shaky ground for their own 100 million sales totals that are listed on that page but they weren't the ones being discussed, Janet Jackson was.

Also I pointed out that a Unit sale can be an album, single or video and me saying that I think Bob Dylan who's type of music is much more album based has probably sold more albums than Janet Jackson who is more singles based music was pure speculation on my part and I never pretended it was anything otherwise.

Also I would like to point out only use Wikipedia for mundane things like album release dates, band members and chart positions and if I did need to prove anything more substantial would go to much more reliable sites.

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Oriphiel

What?! You guys can't have a pseudo-debate slap-fight without me!

In all honesty, I think most of the people mentioned are certainly icons and legends. But it's a difficult list to make because it's half a matter of fact, and half a matter of opinion.