riseagainstrocks

I am not condoning Isreal's actions at all. But I stand behind them before I stand behind Hamas.

i'll re-reply to this later when I have more time.

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One note timeless, came out of nowhere...

Fal

Merkaba, if the upcoming generation are brought up in the right way it can be incredibly quick to remove the racism for the majority part. The problem is that the Parents are willing to lay down arms for the benefit of their children.

RAR, I'm not condoning Hamas' actions either. I'd rather stand behind Palestine than Israel, and Palestine has made this choice. Hamas have not shown how they will act or react in a position of power - I'd rather give them the benefit of doubt for now. There is much less that they can openly do as a part of this now that they're the head of state, as their actions could be treated as an act of war. Putting Israel into a position where their actions would be internationally legalised is not something Hamas would be quick to risk - they may be more radical than Fatah but in this position their actions will have to be far more tempered.

Muzak Geek

I agree that Jews have great contempt for Palestinians as well - By no means do I think that Israel is blameless in this conflict; However, at least the Jews attempt to allow some Palestinians to live and work with Jews. Palestinians don't, and never will do this same sort thing with the Jews. Instead, in many cases, they use this as a way to get into areas where they can conduct acts of violence and terrorism that are primarily inhabited by Jews.

Glad that the movie has given you a frame of reference for this terrible ordeal - However, thehis argument about Palestinians being FORCED to resort to terrorism to garner attention to their cause is absolutely ridiculous. Terrorism, in any for is just that - there is no nobility or justification that can be deduced from a terrorist act… It is the ultimate form of hatred and political ignorance.

Palestine has dug itself a deep hole by refusing to put together a legitimate government with politicians and/or figureheads that choose to represent peace and reason over desctruction and hatred.

Again, I think Israel adds gas to the fire in some cases, and I am definitely not a fan of their immediate retalition and "kill first, ask questions later" policies that they employ sometimes after being attacked. However, you have to remember that Palestine isn't the only "nation" that wants them dead - they are essentially surrounded by people that despise them as human beings… their paranoia is somewhat understandable - although I still don't think that it's a legitimate excuse for their often "trigger-happy" mentality.

I truly believe that Palestinians have chosen to bargain with bombs, and that sort of negotiating will never result in peace. Until they understand that, then the cycle of killing and hatred will never be broken… no matter how much land Palestine has in Isreal.

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Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start… Just because we use cheats, doesn't mean we're not smart.

Fal

Muzak_Geek, all of what you say could have "Jew" or "Israeli" switched with Palestinian, and vice versa. Just because it is the IDF (an armed forces) making hte actions, and just because Hamas are guerilla militants, does not make it any less terrorism. And Israel are the guys pulling the shots: they're the ones who can safely call the moral highground and put down the guns, because they're the onest with America sitting behind them. Palestine has noone, literally. Any semblence of an alliance with other Arab states they have are born purely from the Arab states hatred of Israel rather than care for Palestine.

Muzak Geek

Fal - how many times has Israel put down, or even offered top put down the guns already? How many more peace offerings are to be made temporary by the Palestinians before you realise that Palestine is not interested in peace? That is essentially what I am trying to say. I'm not a pro-Jewish, or pro-Palestinian person… I think that peace in that region would be a great accomplishent; However, I just don't see the Palestinians doing enough to warrant the possibility of that ever happening.

Also… Calling the Jewish people terrorists is off-base. The actions against Israel takes against the Palestinians are purely retailitory - When was the last time you heard about a Jewish settler blowing himself/herself up in a Palestinian-occupied part of the country? As I said before - I do believe that they can overreact in those situations, and do contribute to the cycle of violence by doing so. But to say that the roles of the two sides could easily be swapped is a gross misstatement, and to me, at best shows a narrow view of the situation.

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Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start… Just because we use cheats, doesn't mean we're not smart.

Fal

And how many times has Israel expect the Palestinians to do it first? How many times has Israel ignored the needs of Palestine? How many times has Israel put illegal roads on Palestinian land which are maintained as Jew only which greatly hinders transport of Palestinian affairs? How many illegal checkpoints are there running? How long is the illegal security fence? How many illegal Israeli settlements are there on Palestinian land still? How often is it for those illegal settlements to divert the Palestinians only water sources stopping the legal Palestinian villages having anywhere near sufficient water while the illegal Israeli settlement has all the water it could need and some?

Nah, but I have heard of Jewish settlers going into Palestinian areas and trashing their crops and shooting the palestinians. I have heard of Israeli forces blitz missiling areas only suspected to contain Hamas etc leaders. I have heard of IDF forces sniping Palestinian children who are in school lessons for "being too close to the defense fense", I have heard of IDF forces in illegally occupied territory killing little children who are breaking illegally enforced curfew. I've heard of Israelis illegally bulldosing families homes. I've heard of Israelis taking Palestinians away from checkpoints so that they could smash their arms with bricks (hell, I've seen video clips). I've heard of Israelis at checkpoints stopping abulances go through, forcing them to go the long way round and causing the patient to die (indeed one of the nurses so sick and tired of this event became herself a suicide bomber - it takes a lot for someone who has sworn to do nothing but help to then turn around and in frustration at the futility blow herself up and people along with her). Is this not terrorism? Or is it fine because it's being committed by a sovereign state?

I'm not saying both sides could be swapped, I'm saying that all criticisms you make of Palestine could be made of Israel tenfold, but they're less publicised because of the Jewish biased media.

adidasss

this is where you're wrong. terrorism has it's cause and it's purpose. if there is no cause or purpose it's not terrorism. the cause for terrorism in palestine is that those people have no other means of getting their message across or fighting for their rights. the jews came, the jews took their land, forced them out and there was nothing the palestinians could do. they were not organised nor did they have an army of their own to opose and resist the jews.there was no powerful protector that would lobby for their cause or even be sypmathetic. and so the palestinians turned to the most extreme and violent means they could think of to get their message across, to be heard. i see terrorism as an act of desparation, the last means to continue to fight for a cause the is virtually not winable. it was a response to being bullied , and the more the israelis abuse the palestinians the more drastic measures the palestinians will be capable of doing, because a caged animal is dangerous. and as the palestinian character said in the movie, home is everything, and they will stop at nothing to achieve it,making daily life for the jews so unsafe that the public will change their opinion and be willing to make succesions, something they would not have been willing to do if the palestinians simply went along with the new situation.
those peace offerings are not good enough for the palestinians because they resolve nothing, the jews are still not willing to adress the main issue , to give the palestinians what they want, and i think one of the major points is making east Jerusalem the capital. and here's the thing, the jews will rather all die than give up a portion of jerusalem , the most sacred of places.
what they offer is merely a seice fire, and they offer nothing in return. that can only work for so long before the palestinians get impatient and start with the violence again.
i understand why the jews are so unwilling to give up any portion of something they have been longing for for thousands of years. and that's why this issue will probably go unresolved for many more years, because you have two nations fighting for what they want more than anything, a home of their own. something most of us take too lightly.

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Muzak Geek

Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Adidasss… I understand the point you're trying to make - and I also understand that the Palestinians need thier message to be heard in order for the rest of the world to fully understand their plight and cause; However, in no instances would I condone the use of terrorism as a means of communication or noteriety. It just doesn't make sense on any level of humanity to take innocent lives in the name of publicity, religion, politics, or pride. Just because it's a "act of desperation", as you call it, doesn't mean that it's right or just. Drastic measures, are not what is needed in this ordeal. Level-headed thinking and understanding would suit both sides much better.

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Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start… Just because we use cheats, doesn't mean we're not smart.

Fal

To them those lives are not innocent, because they're living in occupied territory. In the same way the lives of the Palestinian kids breaking curfew or sitting near the Security fence are not innocent to the racist IDF. Israel uses terrorism to subdue and opress the Palestinian people. Palestine uses terrorism to bring international attention to their plight.

Muzak Geek

Palestine uses terrorism to kill Israelis. Plain and simple. I understand that Israel is extremely heavy-handed in it's control and retaliation; However, for anyone to say that Palestine is using terrorism as purely a means of attention is ridiculous. If that were the case, then they wouldn't select schools, buses, malls, grocery shops, etc. to perform their acts - The fact that they do target those places, instead of say a more political or symbolic target, ultimately shows their true intentions - Death and desctruction… not noteriety and attention.

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Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start… Just because we use cheats, doesn't mean we're not smart.