München ( Munich )/Hamas winning the palestinian elections (country, American)

adidasss · 01-31-2006, 04:42 PM

i've just come back from the theatre seeing Munich, a very good film, glad to see Spielberg wasn't affraid to criticise the actions of his own people. i went to IMDB and found an interesting debate and this article was included, it connects the film with the palestinian elections ( i promise it does, just read through it )
even though this man is a leftist and some Israelis claim he always sides with the palestinians, i found his article to be incredibly insightful and wise;

Only Hamas Can Make A Stable Peace?

Only the right can

By Gideon Levy
The good news from the occupied territories is that Hamas won the elections. As opposed to what the chorus of national intimidation - speaking in one voice from Benjamin Netanyahu to Ami Ayalon - is saying, the political change in Palestine could be good news. Not that the victory of an extremist religious organization is not without dangers and problems, and that a secular, moderate and uncorrupt movement would have been preferable. But, in its absence, one can find quite a few points of light in the Hamas victory.

First, these are very authentic results, achieved through elections that were respectably democratic, even though they took place under the least democratic circumstances imaginable, the occupation. As usual, we were threatened by our experts with "anarchy," and, as usual, the Palestinians did not meet those expectations. There was no shooting and no rioting; the Palestinian nation had its say with admirable order. It said "no" to a movement that did not bring it any achievements in the just struggle against the occupation, and it said "yes" to those who appeared to the voters to be braver and with clean hands. The religious issue was set aside: Most of the Palestinians, it can be safely said, don't want a religious state; they want a free state.

Second, both Israelis and Palestinians can learn important lessons from the results of the election. The Israelis have to finally learn that applying force will not get the desired results. On the contrary. In recent years, until the tahadiyeh, the lull, there wasn't a month that went by in which we did not hear about the elimination of another "senior" Hamas official. From assassination to assassination, the movement only grew in strength. The conclusion: Force is not the answer.

The Palestinians also have to learn that it was the moderation of the movement that led them to victory. Hamas did not win because of terror attacks, it largely won despite the terror. It has been moderating in recent months, changing its skin, agreeing to a lull that has lasted since November 2004. During all that, its power only grew. As opposed to the fragmented Fatah, whose heads have no control over what happens on the ground, when Hamas wants, not even a toy gun gets fired. The few terror attacks of the past few months were not the handwork of the violent and murderous group we knew. This is an important lesson. Only Hamas can truly fight terror. The war Israel waged against terror, with its innumerable assassinations, demolitions, arrests and detentions, has been far less effective than one judicious decision by the heads of Hamas.

There's more good news. Only the right can do it? If that view is true, if only people of the right can bring peace, like Ariel Sharon on our side, then we are now facing a new chance that should not be missed. A peace deal with Hamas will be a lot more stable and viable than any agreement we sign with the PLO, if Hamas were to oppose it. Hamas can make concessions where Fatah would never dare. In any case, the Hamas that forms the government won't be the Hamas that sends suicide bombers. The comparison to international terror organizations is also nonsense: Hamas is a movement fighting for limited national goals. If Israel were to reach out to the extremists among its enemies, then maybe it can reach a real agreement that would put an end to the tumor of the occupation and the curse of terror.

To that end, both sides, Israel and Hamas, must free themselves of the slogans of the past. Those who pose preconditions, like disarming Hamas, will miss the chance. It is impossible to expect that Hamas will disarm, just as it is impossible to expect that Israel would disarm. In Palestinian eyes, Hamas' weapons are meant to fight the occupation, and, as is well-known, the occupation is not over. Practically, and indeed morally, the armed are armed if they are equipped with F-16s or Qassam launchers. If Israel were to commit to an end to killing Hamas operatives, there is reason to assume that Hamas would agree, at least for a while, to lay down its arms. The months of tahadiyeh proved that, even when Israel did not cease its own fire. In the coming months, the risk of terror attacks will be further reduced: A movement that wants to consolidate its regime and win international recognition will not be busy with terror. Nor will it allow Islamic Jihad to steal the show.

Now is the time to reach out to Hamas, which is desperate for international, and particularly American, recognition, and knows that such recognition goes through Israel. If Israel were to be friendly toward Hamas, it could benefit. Not that Hamas will all at once give up its extremist demands and its unrealistic dreams, but it will know, as some of its leaders have already declared, to set them aside if it serves their interests. Israel, which in any case did not speak with Yasser Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, now has an opportunity for surprise. Instead of wasting more years with rejectionism, at the end of which we'll sit down with Hamas in any case, let us reach out now to this extremist group, which was democratically elected. Israel has nothing to lose from such an approach. We've already seen the achievements of the hand that assassinates and demolishes, uproots and jails, we've already seen those policies fulfilled in front of our eyes: Hamas won the elections.

do you have any opinions on the film or the elections?

Fal · 01-31-2006, 05:28 PM

Haven't seen the film, and as far as I'm concerned with the elections the Juries still out as to how good this could be for Palestine. Hamas are the only group in ultimate control of Palestine, this has always been true, but where they will take the country is what the new issue is. They certainly are not afraid of shedding blood on either side, however where they will draw the line, at what point they will say "We have what we are owed", I do not know.

riseagainstrocks · 01-31-2006, 05:29 PM

haven't seen the movie although I want to.

And right now, I am upset about the elections since it can only mean more turmoil, but this was a well written essay, however idealistic...hmmm, thinking cap on.

Fal · 01-31-2006, 05:43 PM

The turmoil is ultimately caused by the Jews. You do not usurp a country and expect them to love you, escalation has not helped. The fact that western countries made it so easy for Israel by doing so much to hinder Palestine and what did you expect to happen, the people to lie down and be walked all over?

What would you do if it ocurred in America? No, I'm definitely a Palestinian sympathiser on this one. Not all their actions were the right ones, but of the two countries they are the lesser of evils.

riseagainstrocks · 01-31-2006, 05:56 PM

The resettlement affects few living Palestinians. Imagine what the Jews went through, if we want to play who hit who first than let's go back to B.C. Modern day Isreal was a jewish land before a palestinian one. I'm not saying plopping the jews back there was write but it certainly doesn't mean Palestine (not to mention the rest of the Middle East) can use cowardly terrorism tactics against them

PerFeCTioNThrUSileNCe · 01-31-2006, 06:03 PM

my uncles went and saw the movie. they said it wasnt very good. i dont know why, seeing as i havent seen it yet, i cant form an opinion. but one of my uncles, (who's in the military by the way) said it just wasnt all that great of a film. (fill me in if this seems totally ridiculous.)

very enlightening article. i didnt really know all that much about the situation until now. as it seems, they could, and very well may become even more radical in this position.

Muzak Geek · 01-31-2006, 08:57 PM

In a nutshell, here's why Hamas won the election… Palestinian's can talk all they want about just wanting land, or a country that is their own - news flash, kiddies… all Hamas want is to kill every freakin Jew that walks this Earth - and especially the ones within a stone's throw (pun intended) of their "government". Hamas is nothing but a pseudo-terrorist organization posing as a politcal party so that it can gain some international credibility in elections such as the one they just won. The violence will never stop - peace accords can be made, but will just as easily be broken… all because Hamas views all Jews as less than human.

adidasss · 02-01-2006, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muzak Geek

In a nutshell, here's why Hamas won the election… Palestinian's can talk all they want about just wanting land, or a country that is their own - news flash, kiddies… all Hamas want is to kill every freakin Jew that walks this Earth - and especially the ones within a stone's throw (pun intended) of their "government". Hamas is nothing but a pseudo-terrorist organization posing as a politcal party so that it can gain some international credibility in elections such as the one they just won. The violence will never stop - peace accords can be made, but will just as easily be broken… all because Hamas views all Jews as less than human.

and what do jews think of palestinians i ask you? building walls and essentially creating one big concetration camp....please, watch the movie, there are some incredibly enlighting things said in it. at one point, eric bana who plays the main jewish asasinator, talks to a palestinian terrorist and asks him why do you resort to terror? this will only make the world see you as animals, the palestinians replies yes, they will, but this will attract the worlds attention to our issue and eventually make them wonder who has turned us into animals and why.....a brilliant point.....

Fal · 02-01-2006, 01:32 PM

Quote:

The resettlement affects few living Palestinians.

Wait ... so the more than 15th generation Palestinians were unnaffected? First Palestine loses half it's land legally to the UN, then Israel procedes to occupy a further 80% of the Palestinian land (leaving Palestine with an unnoccupied 10% and few are affected? 750 000 kicked out in 1948 are but a few? The 5 million or so refugees are few (so few that they make up some 18% of official UN refugee statistics), not to mention the numerous more homeless having to live with relations, and the numerous more dehoused after each Israeli incursion ...

Quote:

Imagine what the Jews went through, if we want to play who hit who first than let's go back to B.C. Modern day Isreal was a jewish land before a palestinian one.

And then Jews did what ... died? The Palestinians are there because Jews that were there converted to Islam and stayed put ... becoming modern day Palestinians ... and immigrated away. There was no mass genocide to cull off Israel, it was natural progression that led to it's state as Palestine. Not that that even matters, Palestinians had generations upon generations rooted in Israel with nowhere else to go, while Jews were able to make new lives in the USA and numerous other countries. Hell, they were even offered an unpopulated area of Uganda, but that wasn't good enough for them (much easier to turf other people out and knick their homes). This is NOT a case of "who was uprooted first", it's "who is uprooted NOW".

Quote:

I'm not saying plopping the jews back there was write but it certainly doesn't mean Palestine (not to mention the rest of the Middle East) can use cowardly terrorism tactics against them

Of course! So the artillery strikes, air strikes, helicopter gunships, cruise missiles, tanks and troops firing without caring who they hit is entirely UNcowardly! More fool me for thinking that Israel had the artificial upper hand in this combat! More fool me for thinking that Palestine would stand a chance with anything other than Guerilla tactics! More fool me for expecting Jimmy Palestinian to stand ontop of a hill with his AK and say "I hate Israel" and waiting for the sniper to knob him off!

In a nutshell, here's why Israel is a country… Jews's can talk all they want about just wanting land, or a country that is their own - news flash, kiddies… all Israel want is to kill every freakin Palestinian that walks this Earth - and especially the ones within a stone's throw (pun intended) of their "government". Israel is nothing but a pseudo-terrorist organization posing as a sovereign state so that it can gain some international power such as the 15 million or so $s they leech off America every day to stop their country from going into the red. The violence will never stop - peace accords can be made, but will just as easily be broken… all because Israel views all Palestinians as less than human.

Merkaba · 02-01-2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fal

In a nutshell, here's why Israel is a country… Jews's can talk all they want about just wanting land, or a country that is their own - news flash, kiddies… all Israel want is to kill every freakin Palestinian that walks this Earth - and especially the ones within a stone's throw (pun intended) of their "government". Israel is nothing but a pseudo-terrorist organization posing as a sovereign state so that it can gain some international power such as the 15 million or so $s they leech off America every day to stop their country from going into the red. The violence will never stop - peace accords can be made, but will just as easily be broken… all because Israel views all Palestinians as less than human.

Going off of this, it would take generations of consistant peace agreements to settle things down a bit. Basically kids from both countries are going to be brought up believing their parents, who were brought up to hate the other party with a passion.

It would be like trying to remove a stain from a piece of clothing, you have to wash it hundreds of times to finally get it coming through clean.

The attitude changes won't happen for decades if ever and it's going to require a crap load of stain remover (pun).

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01-31-2006, 04:42 PM
adidasss deadbeat Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Croatia Posts: 4,500	München ( Munich )/Hamas winning the palestinian elections i've just come back from the theatre seeing Munich, a very good film, glad to see Spielberg wasn't affraid to criticise the actions of his own people. i went to IMDB and found an interesting debate and this article was included, it connects the film with the palestinian elections ( i promise it does, just read through it ) even though this man is a leftist and some Israelis claim he always sides with the palestinians, i found his article to be incredibly insightful and wise; Only Hamas Can Make A Stable Peace? Only the right can By Gideon Levy The good news from the occupied territories is that Hamas won the elections. As opposed to what the chorus of national intimidation - speaking in one voice from Benjamin Netanyahu to Ami Ayalon - is saying, the political change in Palestine could be good news. Not that the victory of an extremist religious organization is not without dangers and problems, and that a secular, moderate and uncorrupt movement would have been preferable. But, in its absence, one can find quite a few points of light in the Hamas victory. First, these are very authentic results, achieved through elections that were respectably democratic, even though they took place under the least democratic circumstances imaginable, the occupation. As usual, we were threatened by our experts with "anarchy," and, as usual, the Palestinians did not meet those expectations. There was no shooting and no rioting; the Palestinian nation had its say with admirable order. It said "no" to a movement that did not bring it any achievements in the just struggle against the occupation, and it said "yes" to those who appeared to the voters to be braver and with clean hands. The religious issue was set aside: Most of the Palestinians, it can be safely said, don't want a religious state; they want a free state. Second, both Israelis and Palestinians can learn important lessons from the results of the election. The Israelis have to finally learn that applying force will not get the desired results. On the contrary. In recent years, until the tahadiyeh, the lull, there wasn't a month that went by in which we did not hear about the elimination of another "senior" Hamas official. From assassination to assassination, the movement only grew in strength. The conclusion: Force is not the answer. The Palestinians also have to learn that it was the moderation of the movement that led them to victory. Hamas did not win because of terror attacks, it largely won despite the terror. It has been moderating in recent months, changing its skin, agreeing to a lull that has lasted since November 2004. During all that, its power only grew. As opposed to the fragmented Fatah, whose heads have no control over what happens on the ground, when Hamas wants, not even a toy gun gets fired. The few terror attacks of the past few months were not the handwork of the violent and murderous group we knew. This is an important lesson. Only Hamas can truly fight terror. The war Israel waged against terror, with its innumerable assassinations, demolitions, arrests and detentions, has been far less effective than one judicious decision by the heads of Hamas. There's more good news. Only the right can do it? If that view is true, if only people of the right can bring peace, like Ariel Sharon on our side, then we are now facing a new chance that should not be missed. A peace deal with Hamas will be a lot more stable and viable than any agreement we sign with the PLO, if Hamas were to oppose it. Hamas can make concessions where Fatah would never dare. In any case, the Hamas that forms the government won't be the Hamas that sends suicide bombers. The comparison to international terror organizations is also nonsense: Hamas is a movement fighting for limited national goals. If Israel were to reach out to the extremists among its enemies, then maybe it can reach a real agreement that would put an end to the tumor of the occupation and the curse of terror. To that end, both sides, Israel and Hamas, must free themselves of the slogans of the past. Those who pose preconditions, like disarming Hamas, will miss the chance. It is impossible to expect that Hamas will disarm, just as it is impossible to expect that Israel would disarm. In Palestinian eyes, Hamas' weapons are meant to fight the occupation, and, as is well-known, the occupation is not over. Practically, and indeed morally, the armed are armed if they are equipped with F-16s or Qassam launchers. If Israel were to commit to an end to killing Hamas operatives, there is reason to assume that Hamas would agree, at least for a while, to lay down its arms. The months of tahadiyeh proved that, even when Israel did not cease its own fire. In the coming months, the risk of terror attacks will be further reduced: A movement that wants to consolidate its regime and win international recognition will not be busy with terror. Nor will it allow Islamic Jihad to steal the show. Now is the time to reach out to Hamas, which is desperate for international, and particularly American, recognition, and knows that such recognition goes through Israel. If Israel were to be friendly toward Hamas, it could benefit. Not that Hamas will all at once give up its extremist demands and its unrealistic dreams, but it will know, as some of its leaders have already declared, to set them aside if it serves their interests. Israel, which in any case did not speak with Yasser Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, now has an opportunity for surprise. Instead of wasting more years with rejectionism, at the end of which we'll sit down with Hamas in any case, let us reach out now to this extremist group, which was democratically elected. Israel has nothing to lose from such an approach. We've already seen the achievements of the hand that assassinates and demolishes, uproots and jails, we've already seen those policies fulfilled in front of our eyes: Hamas won the elections. do you have any opinions on the film or the elections? __________________

01-31-2006, 05:28 PM
Fal My account? Disabled. Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 78	Haven't seen the film, and as far as I'm concerned with the elections the Juries still out as to how good this could be for Palestine. Hamas are the only group in ultimate control of Palestine, this has always been true, but where they will take the country is what the new issue is. They certainly are not afraid of shedding blood on either side, however where they will draw the line, at what point they will say "We have what we are owed", I do not know.

01-31-2006, 05:29 PM
riseagainstrocks Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: JMU Posts: 3,143	haven't seen the movie although I want to. And right now, I am upset about the elections since it can only mean more turmoil, but this was a well written essay, however idealistic...hmmm, thinking cap on. __________________ www.siegemusic.blogspot.com One note timeless, came out of nowhere...

01-31-2006, 05:43 PM
Fal My account? Disabled. Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 78	The turmoil is ultimately caused by the Jews. You do not usurp a country and expect them to love you, escalation has not helped. The fact that western countries made it so easy for Israel by doing so much to hinder Palestine and what did you expect to happen, the people to lie down and be walked all over? What would you do if it ocurred in America? No, I'm definitely a Palestinian sympathiser on this one. Not all their actions were the right ones, but of the two countries they are the lesser of evils.

01-31-2006, 05:56 PM
riseagainstrocks Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: JMU Posts: 3,143	The resettlement affects few living Palestinians. Imagine what the Jews went through, if we want to play who hit who first than let's go back to B.C. Modern day Isreal was a jewish land before a palestinian one. I'm not saying plopping the jews back there was write but it certainly doesn't mean Palestine (not to mention the rest of the Middle East) can use cowardly terrorism tactics against them __________________ www.siegemusic.blogspot.com One note timeless, came out of nowhere...

01-31-2006, 08:57 PM
Muzak Geek Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wake Forest, NC Posts: 91	In a nutshell, here's why Hamas won the election… Palestinian's can talk all they want about just wanting land, or a country that is their own - news flash, kiddies… all Hamas want is to kill every freakin Jew that walks this Earth - and especially the ones within a stone's throw (pun intended) of their "government". Hamas is nothing but a pseudo-terrorist organization posing as a politcal party so that it can gain some international credibility in elections such as the one they just won. The violence will never stop - peace accords can be made, but will just as easily be broken… all because Hamas views all Jews as less than human. __________________ Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start… Just because we use cheats, doesn't mean we're not smart.