Human Beings. (quote, history)

Stu · 11-02-2006, 11:15 AM

There are two academics in history who have two completely different views on the human beings most natural state:

Thomas Hobbes believed:
. Desire is continual and never permanently satisfied
. Failing to satisfy leads to despair
. Men are competitive, all have desires and fear death
. Therefore, our natural state is one of war and conflict
. Every individual has a right to use own power to satisfy desires
. To combat this state, humans must be controlled by a law.
. Rights if individualism concerned by self survival must be given up for peace.
Humans must be controlled by a greater power.

Rousseau
. Argued Humans are naturally solitary and free
. State of nature based on freedom, happiness, health and peace
. Self Love and Compassion come before any reason or rationality
. Saw encouragement and release of natural qualities as the best form of education.
. commerce and money quash morals and virtues
. society causes oppression
. Individual must give up rights to democracy in order to acheive a greater good.

What are your views? who do you agree with more?

MoonlitSunshine · 11-02-2006, 01:47 PM

I think Hobbes was closer to the truth, but as we can all see, his solution doesn't really work. I don't know what you could do to solve it though

DontRunMeOver · 11-02-2006, 02:31 PM

I just wrote a ****ing awesome reply to this.

But the browser timed out when I went to post, so you probably won't be seeing it.

Stu · 11-02-2006, 02:32 PM

thats a shame. Ialways like a good discussion.

DontRunMeOver · 11-02-2006, 02:41 PM

Well, it was about the 'natural state' being (for an atheist and evolution-liker like me) one of teamwork and cooperation by groups of humans against predators and prey mostly from other species.

This natural state is disrupted by the removal of those predators and the containment of prey, which means that our instincts (or the capabilities in our brain which would have dealt with predator-prey issues) are left without the simple 'work with other humans to fight against predators and look for food' instruction and we are consquently at a loss.

There were other things which made the idea more complete, but I want to prepare something for tomorrow so I won't think more about it now.

Stu · 11-02-2006, 02:44 PM

ok, but wasnt it human beings that were the predator more so then them being the prey? they'd work in groups to catch their prey thus pursue their desire. I do support hobbes theory of the natural human state, but i dont believe in his solution.

DontRunMeOver · 11-02-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LedZepStu

ok, but wasnt it human beings that were the predator more so then them being the prey?

Every animal that survives is more predator than prey. Gazelles prey on grass. Humans were predator and prey, they may have been one more so than the other... they were still both.

It looks like there's something major missing between the two lines below:
1. Men are competitive, all have desires and fear death
2. Therefore, our natural state is one of war and conflict

This looks like it has been dodgily paraphased, because point 1 doesn't automatically lead to point 2 and yet there is a 'therefore' lurking around.

MoonlitSunshine · 11-02-2006, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DontRunMeOver

Every animal that survives is more predator than prey. Gazelles prey on grass. Humans were predator and prey, they may have been one more so than the other... they were still both.

It looks like there's something major missing between the two lines below:
1. Men are competitive, all have desires and fear death
2. Therefore, our natural state is one of war and conflict

This looks like it has been dodgily paraphased, because point 1 doesn't automatically lead to point 2 and yet there is a 'therefore' lurking around.

I can see where you're coming from, it makes sense. If man's natural state was war and conflict with eachother, we'd have never survived this long, it was only with the extinction of anything that could successfully prey on us that we lost any sort of struggle to survive. With a lack of anything to fight against, we have an urge for violence which has to be taken out on something, and the only thing left is eachother.

DontRunMeOver · 11-02-2006, 03:36 PM

That's exactly what I meant. As in, conflict between humans probably wasn't as common before but now that the natural enemies have been stamped out our natural response is to find another enemy and with no other target we make other people the enemy (plus technological and medicinal development could be viewed as a similar response against the 'enemies' disease, discomfort, strenuous work etc.).

swim · 11-02-2006, 03:45 PM

Conflict is caused by competition which can be found in everything, even plants. So I don't think conflict is more occuring because there's nothing else to fight rather there's more people to fight with, to prove that your ideas are right, and an even more push for land, resource, and being one step ahead of your neighbor.

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11-02-2006, 11:15 AM
Stu Call me Stu Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,381	Human Beings. There are two academics in history who have two completely different views on the human beings most natural state: Thomas Hobbes believed: . Desire is continual and never permanently satisfied . Failing to satisfy leads to despair . Men are competitive, all have desires and fear death . Therefore, our natural state is one of war and conflict . Every individual has a right to use own power to satisfy desires . To combat this state, humans must be controlled by a law. . Rights if individualism concerned by self survival must be given up for peace. Humans must be controlled by a greater power. Rousseau . Argued Humans are naturally solitary and free . State of nature based on freedom, happiness, health and peace . Self Love and Compassion come before any reason or rationality . Saw encouragement and release of natural qualities as the best form of education. . commerce and money quash morals and virtues . society causes oppression . Individual must give up rights to democracy in order to acheive a greater good. What are your views? who do you agree with more? __________________ Im just a man Who is learning how to fall

11-02-2006, 01:47 PM
MoonlitSunshine Dat's Der Bunny! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 610	I think Hobbes was closer to the truth, but as we can all see, his solution doesn't really work. I don't know what you could do to solve it though __________________ "You're Never Alone With a Rubber Duck" - Captain of the 3rd Ark

11-02-2006, 02:32 PM
Stu Call me Stu Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,381	thats a shame. Ialways like a good discussion. __________________ Im just a man Who is learning how to fall

11-02-2006, 02:44 PM
Stu Call me Stu Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,381	ok, but wasnt it human beings that were the predator more so then them being the prey? they'd work in groups to catch their prey thus pursue their desire. I do support hobbes theory of the natural human state, but i dont believe in his solution. __________________ Im just a man Who is learning how to fall

11-02-2006, 03:45 PM
swim This is my year for sure. Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,590	Conflict is caused by competition which can be found in everything, even plants. So I don't think conflict is more occuring because there's nothing else to fight rather there's more people to fight with, to prove that your ideas are right, and an even more push for land, resource, and being one step ahead of your neighbor. __________________ go sailor. go sailor. go.