Indecision 2008 -what do you think????? (member, quote, history)

Inuzuka Skysword · 07-21-2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X

I'm not advocating for socialism (would not be against it though) but if we can take money from some people to help boost up another class why not. Using that money to get homeless and poor people more work would help this country greatly.

I understand that you want to help other people in need and I am all for that, but I don't see how it is moral at all to steal from the rich and give to the poor. The fact of the matter is that I don't really care about the country as a whole, and I see myself as an individual in this world. Since I have only one perspective, why should I decide how another person should forcibly give there money away when they don't want to. It isn't a matter of being selfish at all. It is a matter of protecting someones basic rights of doing what they want with their property.

Quote:

I don't want America in another Gilded Age. The wealthiest are breaking farther and farther away from everyone else at the rest of the American people's expense.

The reason is because of the huge amounts of taxes on the middle class, which will increase with socialized health-care. These taxes also stop more people from getting rich, which theoretically stops more people from giving money. This is because in the large middle class, there are probably more people who would give more. If these people were able to get more money, they may give that money away.

Double X · 07-21-2008, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayJamJah

Why should the wealthy be held accountable for that?

What have they done to limit others from obtaining wealth?

If you give people hand outs you take away their motivation, it is not good for the country. You create a sense of entitlement and apathy in people as well. It will only give them a temporary boost as well, it's not as if we can pull the destitute from the ranks of poverty with money. They need a change in lifestyle and attitude first.

The extremely wealthy already give back more then half of their income in taxes and are responsible for more then 3/4 the charitable donations in this country.

When the government takes money it uses it poorly. The biggest problem I have with your idea is that. You are saying you trust the government more then the citizens to do what's right. I don't like that at all.

Government socialized health care is lazy, selfish and ultimately unfair.

I completely trust the citizens, they will do good with the money they are given to get off their feet. I don't get why you claim poor people won't do anything with money and then say I don't believe in the citizens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

I understand that you want to help other people in need and I am all for that, but I don't see how it is moral at all to steal from the rich and give to the poor. The fact of the matter is that I don't really care about the country as a whole, and I see myself as an individual in this world. Since I have only one perspective, why should I decide how another person should forcibly give there money away when they don't want to. It isn't a matter of being selfish at all. It is a matter of protecting someones basic rights of doing what they want with their property.

The reason is because of the huge amounts of taxes on the middle class, which will increase with socialized health-care. These taxes also stop more people from getting rich, which theoretically stops more people from giving money. This is because in the large middle class, there are probably more people who would give more. If these people were able to get more money, they may give that money away.

When people struggle to live, we should help them. It's silly to think that someone wants their basic rights to be protected just so they can hoard more of their money.

Taxing the middle class over the top is crazy, but I think we can tax many of the wealthy families who just save their money so their great great grandchildren don't have to work.

**JayJamJah** · 07-21-2008, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X

I think we can tax many of the wealthy families who just save their money so their great great grandchildren don't have to work.

So if rich people are given money they won't work hard, but if poor people are given money they will?

I know you don't think that, but do you see what I mean. Endless hand outs take away motivation. Endless handouts (i.e welfare, rent control, those who abuse unemployment etc) take away motivation. Endless handouts are the socialist solution.

I would rather leave it up to the private citizens like you and I'd like to think my self who are willing to sacrifice what they can to help those less fortunate. Don't force people to do it, especially when there are no results to show for their efforts.

I love where your heart is, I am only arguing the best way to accomplish what we both want.

Wayfarer · 07-21-2008, 11:09 PM

I went with the last one.

**** you, RezZ. Go **** yourself.

bsmix · 07-22-2008, 02:33 AM

i thought that was kind of rude ghahaha so i said mccain to be mean

Inuzuka Skysword · 07-22-2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X

When people struggle to live, we should help them. It's silly to think that someone wants their basic rights to be protected just so they can hoard more of their money.

Taxing the middle class over the top is crazy, but I think we can tax many of the wealthy families who just save their money so their great great grandchildren don't have to work.

The fact is that I don't see how you should have the authority over someone else's property who doesn't want you to. It would be like me coming over to your house and taking your computer because I want to give it to someone else. While that doesn't perfectly match up because the rich could just buy a new one, rich people are quite stingy and do not want other hands on there money. Therefore, I don't think we are morally right and taking there money, whatever the cause. It is kind of like respecting a culture when you go to another country. You want to do something they are doing, but it is a matter of respect.

Double X · 07-22-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayJamJah

So if rich people are given money they won't work hard, but if poor people are given money they will?

I know you don't think that, but do you see what I mean. Endless hand outs take away motivation. Endless handouts (i.e welfare, rent control, those who abuse unemployment etc) take away motivation. Endless handouts are the socialist solution.

I would rather leave it up to the private citizens like you and I'd like to think my self who are willing to sacrifice what they can to help those less fortunate. Don't force people to do it, especially when there are no results to show for their efforts.

I love where your heart is, I am only arguing the best way to accomplish what we both want.

That's the problem - I know it's not morally right to 'steal' other peoples property and give them to less fortunate people but I still see the insanely wide gap between the few rich and the poor masses and they don't donate nearly as much as they could.

And I don't want endless handouts, I want more money to give direction (ie welfare checks only if you actually have a job with at least 28 hours a week, private counselors who work with these people to get them off their feer, not a closed window that poops checks).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

The fact is that I don't see how you should have the authority over someone else's property who doesn't want you to. It would be like me coming over to your house and taking your computer because I want to give it to someone else. While that doesn't perfectly match up because the rich could just buy a new one, rich people are quite stingy and do not want other hands on there money. Therefore, I don't think we are morally right and taking there money, whatever the cause. It is kind of like respecting a culture when you go to another country. You want to do something they are doing, but it is a matter of respect.

I can't bear myself to let that happen. When the richer are just hoarding their money it seems so much worse than raising taxes so we actually do stuff with that money.

Inuzuka Skysword · 07-22-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X

I can't bear myself to let that happen. When the richer are just hoarding their money it seems so much worse than raising taxes so we actually do stuff with that money.

Now you sound like a fundamentalist Christian...

I mean, it is exactly like that. You think you know utopia, and since yours will interfere with others freedoms it becomes a problem.

Like I said, it is just like bringing religion into politics.

Double X · 07-22-2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

Now you sound like a fundamentalist Christian...

I mean, it is exactly like that. You think you know utopia, and since yours will interfere with others freedoms it becomes a problem.

Like I said, it is just like bringing religion into politics.

So you would rather 'let things sort themselves out' and watch people starve on the streets?

Do we need taxes at all? I mean it is their property, no?

Inuzuka Skysword · 07-22-2008, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X

So you would rather 'let things sort themselves out' and watch people starve on the streets?

No, you do what any truly generous person would. You give up everything you own and give it to the poor since you care so much for them. I doubt you will, so you really don't care about them as much as you think you do.

The point is that until your own property is on the line, you won't show your true colors.

Quote:

Do we need taxes at all? I mean it is their property, no?

A Revelation! I ask myself the same question and people always respond by calling me an idealist.

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07-21-2008, 11:09 PM
Wayfarer Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,362	I went with the last one. ** you, RezZ. Go ** yourself. __________________ Sing me a song, you're a singer, Pass me the bong, you're a bringer of reefer.

07-22-2008, 02:33 AM
bsmix Music Addict Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: California Posts: 180	i thought that was kind of rude ghahaha so i said mccain to be mean __________________ a music nazi....is still a nazi