duga

^

I haven't watched the video, so I'm not sure what they cover but slitting animal's throats in such a way is part of a religious ritual in many parts of that region. I can understand how you would see it as brutal, but they are actually thanking and praising the animal for what it has just done for them. But hey...what religion isn't brutal in some way?

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Confusion will be my epitaph...

Guybrush

I suppose I don't think of it as inhumane because I don't think that not causing harm to animals is particularly humane, but ..

For me, the main criticism towards whaling is when it threatens species. I read your arguments that whaling causes pain and coming from a vegan, that's hard to argue with. It does and so using that to justify that it's wrong makes sense! I just think it's slightly ridiculous how people make whaling a target for moral complaints and controversy when compared to some 1000 minke whales each year, there are many millions of cattle, pigs and chickens that suffer as well. Some of the videos posted in this thread show in a very visually disturbing way that not all animals are dead when they are slaughtered. Some places, I'm sure the instant death statistics are not much better than they are for the whales. Also, it's not just the killing which hurts them either. Unlike the whales - cattle, pigs and chickens are often forced to live in crowded and/or tight spaces, a lot of them get hurt during transport, many spend most of their lives living in their own fecal matter, some are bred so that they have chronic pains or handicaps - for example the broiler chickens we eat which become so fat their legs can't even support their own weight. Some of them probably spend their entire short lives in misery only to be put on our dinner plates.

And when you think about how much meat you get from one minke whale .. Comparatively, you'd have to keep and kill thousands of chickens to get the same amount of meat. If you think utilitaristically about the "amount" of suffering you get per pound of meat and make comparisons, I'm sure whaling - at least the kind done with explosive harpoons - comes out pretty good.

Of course to you, all this is wrong so then it's just a matter of how wrong it is .. I'd like to see what an anti-whaling meat eater would think, but I guess there may not be any.

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Scarlett O'Hara

Agreed. I feel close to the whaling issue as I did a project on the Japanese whaling being carried out in Antarctica, the most precious resource left on earth.

My reasoning against whaling is due to the simplicity of the Southern Ocean food chain. If whale species are depleted, the very top of the food chain will no longer exist and it will disrupt the processes for all the other species who rely on it such as Toothfish and Krill.

I understand that there is a cultural element to the Japanese whaling, however at the same time they need to respect the whales existence. What is interesting is that whale meat is no longer economically profitable and is not as popular to eat in Japan as it once was.

Japan needs to step up as a country and at least whale to a sustainable point. If the whaling is for so-called science, then Japan could also take heed of Australia and New Zealand scientists who have found non-invasive ways of finding scientific data on whales, without the need to kill them.

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VEGANGELICA

The video about Australian sheep does not just show people, probably Muslim, slitting a sheep's throat and cutting off its legs while the sheep is conscious (according to the announcer), but also shows Australians slicing off parts of the backsides of living sheep they've tethered down...in other words, torture, duga. The Australians are not acting out of religious irrationality, but out of greed: they are attempting to increase the income people get per sheep. Neither motivation for cruelty is good. I still recommend the video, duga!

I feel that religious beliefs and superstitions are unacceptable as justifications for perpetuating cruelty, whether it is slicing conscious sheep's throats or burying women in the ground to stone them due to infidelity. And whether the killers "thank" the victim or not is immaterial to me and makes no difference to the victim...so thanking sheep when crudely slaughtering them is just an example of people trying to feel "better" about their heinous actions.

Hmm...when do you feel it is inhumane to not cause harm to (healthy, wild) animals, Tore? Are you thinking about "population control" rationales for killing animals?

Oh yes, I agree: concern for whales but not confined cattle, pigs, and chickens seems hypocritical to me...especially since people sometimes kill all of them in legal, vicious ways: blunt trauma of piglets; downer cattle allowed to die slowly, suffering, after humans cause their injury and illness; baby chicks intentionally crushed and suffocated by the millions.

And, like you say, at least the whales were free...but killing a healthy, free animal is still a sad thing, I feel. The fact that humans are ending the life of someone (such as a mother and a calf whale) enjoying her existence up until that point becomes even more obvious to me in such hunting situations.

Removing a species at the top of the food chain would probably be very "good" for the krill, whose populations would expand, and "good" for small fish who rely on krill...assuming an increase in population is "good."

Your comment about "respect a whale's existence" interests me, Vanilla, because I think you mean on a species level, but you don't view shooting an individual whale with an explosive harpoon as disrespecting her or his existence.

From what I've read...and it sounds like you've read this, too...Japan's claim that they are hunting whales for "science" purposes is pretty much a sham. It might be more believable if they didn't then eat their "experimental subjects."

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glastonelle

Intresting thread..

I'm not much of a big meat-eater myself, but I'm certainly not vegan or vegetarian. I could possible be vegetarian if I was dedicated enough, but I like Indian food too much.

I reckon that as the meats already dead, you might aswell eat it or it wont have really had a purpose for dying apart from being chopped up and frozen. I feel sorry for the things, but not enough. Its human nature.

Guybrush

How about from a nutritional point of view? I know Vegangelica argues we can stay healthy from eating plants, but I'm somewhat sceptical. Many biologists, in particular an Iver Mysterud here, believe that the lifestyle diseases many have today and even crime and violence in society stems (in part) from our modern diet. Grains like wheat, milk (lactose) and sugars in general is thought by many to cause changes in behaviour (responses toto our environment) and also causes a range of lifestyle diseases like cardiac problems, problems with teeth or diabetes.

A lot of the basis for this the way I understand comes from studying indigenous peoples and their diets and comparing their health to our health. It is assumed that these people are closer to the "caveman diet" we are adapted to. Typically, protein sources like meat from hunted animals are a very important part of the diet of such peoples.

>> source

Basically, on average they get more energy, more fat and much less sugars like from sweets or simple starches like from potatoes, wheat or rice. Compared to us (western society), these people are also relatively healthy.

As an example of such a people, Staffan Lindeberg is a swede who's been studying indigenous people from Kitava who are thought to have something like a "caveman diet" uncorrupted by western society. They found that much of the medical problems that are common in western society was absent, most important strokes, hypertension and cardiac problems.

>> source

Further studies on diets show that a change from this kind of diet to a western diet introduces or worsens health problems, from tooth rot and pimples to epilepsy and becoming shorter. Let me know and I'll dig up more sources. For now, I thought this was interesting - a study that shows how a modern diet may worsen autism and related behaviour :

>> Source

Although there are problems saying the modern diet is causal for all lifestyle health problems (f.ex excercise plays a part and selection and bottlenecks etc could play a part in creating some of the healthy indigenous peoples trend), but I personally have great belief in it. However, I haven't been pushing this argument as much because I wouldn't use it so much as a criticism against vegetarianism/veganism as I would against our western society diets in general. Still, although Erica has argued that you can be a healthy vegan, I am sceptical. To me, a choice to be a vegetarian is still a choice to be unhealthy although depending on what your diet looks like when you make that choice, it could of course be a healthier unhealthy choice.

So, as an argument against veganism or vegetarianism, this is completely relevant. I think one of these indigenous peoples, if they made a lifestyle choice to vegetarianism and started living like Erica, they would get more sick. On the other hand, if the average american male makes this choice, I'm not so sure - he might get healthier. What I'm basically thinking, though, is that from a health point of view, veganism/vegetarianism is not optimal.

edit :

Had to correct a sentence which previously said exactly the opposite of what I wanted it to say

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Something Completely Different

Stone Birds

let's simplify this yes meat technically is murder, because it involves the killings of a living things but i'm not a vegetarien because there is a simple fact of life vegans and vegetarians ignore:

all that is life comes from death, and all that is death comes from life.

it's been true for billions of years i'm not sure why so many thing it doesn't matter anymore

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VEGANGELICA

I don't think that vegans and vegetarians ignore that animals obtain energy by consuming other organisms, Stone Birds. Instead, vegans and vegetarians realize they can nourish themselves without eating animals, and they choose to kill and eat plants instead of animals.

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VEGANGELICA

Sorry, Tore, I missed your post at first and only noticed it now.

You are completely correct that the transition from the hunter-gatherer lifestyle to agriculture in Eurasia, dominated by a few starchy grains such as wheat, led to greater disease, reduced stature, and more teeth and spinal problems among early agricultural societies. I recommend you read Jarod Diamond's article about the problems caused by agriculture: Diamond, Jarod (2987) The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race. It is old but good. http://www.environnement.ens.fr/pers...ed_diamond.pdf

However, the nutritional and cultural problems, such as inequity and social stratification, associated with early agricultural societies were not caused by the diets being more vegetarian, but by the diets being based primarily on a few staple starchy crops. These diets lacked variety and provided insufficient nutrients, resulting in micronutrient and macronutrient malnutrition (plus bouts of starvation when crops failed). Monocropping is a bad idea. Unfortunately, humans still have to learn this.

In contrast, a hunter-gatherer diet had a much wider variety of all sorts of foods, both plants and killed animals, providing micronutrients and macronutrients (protein, carbohydrates, and fats). A diet consisting mostly of wheat simply cannot complete with a varied diet such as a gatherer-hunter diet.

Yet a diet that provides sufficient nutrients does *not* have to include meat.

Tore, it really is true that well-planned vegan and vegetarian diets *are* as healthful as well-planned meat-eating diets. Again, the American Dietetic Association (the United States' main professional organization for nutritionists and dietitians) provides a very clear position statement on the healthfulness of vegetarian and vegan diets, backed by ample research from peer-reviewed journals. This most recent statement was published in 2009:

You are correct that the typical Western diet, which the U.S. is happily exporting around the world by promoting meat and dairy consumption and industrial foods (high fat, high calorie foods like fatty sweet foods), is increasing heart disease rates and obesity and type 2 diabetes. In many developing countries, there are now more overweight people than undernourished people!

The problem is not a vegetarian or vegan diet but a POORLY PLANNED DIET (combined with a more sedantary, urban lifestyle). To be blunt, I think most people don't know what they need to eat to be healthy. They probably don't know the difference between unsaturated fat and saturated fat. They don't know of the benefits of omega-3 fats (unsaturated fats prevalent in canola oil, flaxseed, and fish) vs. omega-6 fats (prevalent in corn oil). They don't eat enough fruits and vegetables. They think they *have* to eat dairy products ("three servings per day!") because that is what they have been taught (can we say milk lobby?). They eat sweets, an abundance of fatty dairy products (ice cream), white flour pastries, and far too much meat, especially red meat, with its cholesterol and carcinogens. And they wash it all down with soda pop. And the result is they suffer a higher risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease, and a variety of cancers...the "diseases of affluence."

All of these problems caused by the modern Western diet are *not* problems caused by vegetarianism. They are caused by people receiving bad nutritional advice or, in some cases, simply choosing to eat whatever they want regardless of the health risks.

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Stone Birds

Vegetables Have Feelings To.


oh and everytime you eat a vegetable or fruit you must recite this (it's like what some people do when eating meat or killing):

O ___________ (insert fruit name like “apple”),
Before I consume your peaceful, resting, rotting flesh,
Please accept my humble vow to forever watch over
Your magnificent mother tree and all her celestial
Child fruit.

I am dedicated - heart, soul, and mind - to the eternal
Cause of righteousness that is the protection of all
Fruits and Vegetables from the evil killers - your hunters -
Herbivores and omnivores. Our mutual friends, the
Carnivores, we also honor at this time for their tireless
Effort in the cause of your protection. May I always
Stay true to the cause!

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