Why message boards go down hill.

TheBig3 · 02-23-2010, 04:06 PM

There was quite a bit of speculation a few months back on how this site was going downhill. With Jackhammer's recent departure, its come up again with the Mods and I wanted to offer my 2 cents about why it happens, not just on musicbanter, but with the world at large.

Theres a reason people continue to watch political punditry even after the same issues are dredged up every 2 years. Theres a reaon why everyone hates Rolling Stone, despite being the biggest music oriented magazine state-side.

With regard to the former, in the heat of opposition, opinion becomes conviction. With the latter, opposition forces take on a "king of the hill" role. Eventually there is a position taken, it is standardized which is held as truth after a given time period becomes fact.

Rolling Stone is bull**** because the same useless and tired old warhorses are trotted out for their annual blow job and we're all supposed to stand and applaud as these elitist journalists with $5 hair cuts tell us about authenticity and "freshness" with a thesaurus's remix of the same old line. Once this line of rhetoric becomes standardized, those who rebel to rebel take up a counter-culture camp with the hollow rationale of "rebellion" but they do little to move on a given opinion. Most are happy to call the Beatles terrible, or announce their undying passion for Daniel Johnson. These are not opinions, they are part-time filler for empty personalities. The character-equivelent of foam shiping-peanuts.

Message boards co-opt that musical snobbery that is so prevelent in the music/journalism industry at the very cost of the interest in the boards. It does this because of two major reasons; for one thing, the pseudo-intellectual posturing that occurs is rarely based in logic. It would be near impossible to do this given that music is traditionally an emotional response. Still, because there is no right or wrong answer, arguments are reduced to horrible posturing and medals are often given to the loudest, with the snarkiest lines. This atmosphere of bullying lends itself to the solidification of opinion.

Secondly, and I think this is bigger - most forum posters are ****ing vaginas. I've said prior, most show up here with whatever opinions happened to stick to them as they walked through life. No one comes to MB as a "scholar" because those people are generally touting how great jazz and classical are, and they find no responses here. That and their *******s. So your average Joe shows up to these boards and is promtly savaged with a 4-Iron by clueless dopes who not only think Minus the Bear is Jesus, but revers them with the same regard that the scholars revere Jazz and Classical. The larger differece being that Minus the Bear sucks, and we do respond to Indie threads.

Once these Johnny 6-packs are abused enough they either leave, or start to conform. And they don't kind of conform, they jump in whole hog and beat the hell out of the newbie wave behind them. They are assisted by the few that had just finished beating them, and who are now just as snarky but with less fire.

Eventually those folks become established or leave, and the final tier of a forum poster becomes somewhat of a seasoned veteran in musical exploration and argument. Even still, old habits die hard and conventional wisdom is questioned but rarely explored. And thats the problem. This penthouse class of posters doesn't weild its experience like a weapon to slaughter sacred cows, they sit, kowtowed to the systems and norms that were in place when they showed up here.

In an ever-evolving world like music, how could discussion ever become boring?

With access as easy as it is now, how could the well run dry?

It can't, and it doesn't, still people look across the forums, through a large expanse we've all paved with two hands and a keyboard and we think to ourselves that its all been done. This is because we've agreed that Nirvana actually sucked, Radiohead is so untouchable they shouldn't be put into groups with other artists, and that there is no redeeming features left to the countless genres we hear on the radio.

These ideas are only challenged when some doe-eyed newbie shows up, who only wants to come to a place to talk about music and is quickly questioned on his intellectual abilities by a group of hatemongers (sorry Urban) who were too weak-minded to defend themselves at the gates opening.

People have said in the course of this discussion that they were thinking of leaving or that this place had become so boring that would check in weekly at best. I'd guess that few things would be better for the longevity of the boards. Your opinions are here, you're here in spirit. But we've survived a liteny of great posters leaving before; Pastor of Muppets, Ethan's 42 user names, Swim, Satchmo twice, Jr, and despite his part-time *******ry, Bill good make a great point when he wanted to.

I understand wanting to show up here for battle and seeing the field abandoned can be frustrating. But the effort of one new point, in a world of a countless trillions, can't be that hard. And if we all did it, even once a week there wouldn't be a problem. But in order to do this, we're going to have to challenge our own ideas, and the musicbanter conventional wisdom, if we're going to make it work.

I'm going to go post about the problems with Metallica. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

FETCHER. · 02-23-2010, 04:11 PM

I think if anyone else had written that I wouldn't have read it.

I agree, I'm not entirely sure if I disagree with anything. I'm going to read it again tomorrow, it's late. I'll get back to you with my disagreements.

Arya Stark · 02-23-2010, 04:17 PM

I think people have a lot of expectations for message boards.
People don't have as much to say as they think they do, and they say it all, and they get board.
They argue about the same things over and over again, and bash others for the same things over and over again.
And then the boards become something else entirely.
That's what I think for now.

storymilo · 02-23-2010, 04:21 PM

wait jackhammer departed?

FETCHER. · 02-23-2010, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storymilo

wait jackhammer departed?

woah, i missed that part, what the ****?!

duga · 02-23-2010, 04:47 PM

These are definitely the sentiments I share, now that I have been posting here for a couple months. It really can seem repetitive at times. Personally, I try to avoid bashing a band someone likes (especially if the person is new). Granted, there have been times where I can't help but give my opinion on how terrible a popular band is just because it is frustrating to me that people don't know about the "underground" music that is so much better (well...to me, i guess).

I guess the hope I had coming here was that I would meet people who have a passion for music like I do, and that I would be able to find some great new music I would have otherwise never found. MB has definitely done this.

It is easy to figure out what music is popular these days, but that is not why I listen to music. I think the fact that people come and go so quickly is less due to the fact that people are ready and willing to tear them down and more about how the "elite" that stick around are so much into to music that all the stuff we tend to recommend to your average joe, they have never heard of. That gets intimidating. Checking out the "Albums Your Digging" and seeing album after album of absolutely unrecognizable music makes a casual fan feel unready to participate, and then they don't.

I'm sure if we all restricted our discussion to "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" we would actually get a bit more activity. The sad fact remains, however, that being as enthusiastic about music as we stayers are is rare. I know I don't meet many when I'm out and about. Even so, we do exist. And I think this forum could stay strong, even with your periodic fluctuations in activity.

stormjh · 02-23-2010, 04:53 PM

It's not just people recommending unheard of music to people, or moaning about your favourite band, it's people acting like ****s when they do it.

right-track · 02-23-2010, 04:58 PM

I believe these forums have gone as far as they can go for a message board.
Unless going around in circles counts for something.
I think most of the old member accounts share that sentiment and the ones who haven't left, or died of boredom struggle to post something they haven't already posted before.
The MB Reader injected a bit of life back into the boards and extended the interest level while at the same time helping to raise the bar.
My opinion on the future of Music Banter is that the old place needs a facelift and a slightly different direction.
It needs to evolve from a community message board to an amatuer online music magazine without losing it's community spirit.
Under the present Admin I doubt that will ever happen.

duga · 02-23-2010, 05:00 PM

^

Perfect. This needs to happen. Agreed 100%.

Nine Black Poppies · 02-23-2010, 05:06 PM

On a related note, there's an undercurrent inherent in the kind of musical snobbery being talked about here that I've always found rather... I dunno, unsettling, I suppose. It basically comes down to the idea that having a critical perspective on art (music in this case) seems to be more about disliking things than actually liking them, finding something wrong in the taste of the less educated. IE: "That thing you like sucks because this thing you've never heard of is better" instead of "That thing you like is sort of like this thing that I like that you've never heard of, but here's what's cool about my thing." There's something of an ugly undercurrent of art-as-social-currency in that, as well as a... for lack of a better word, laziness or lack of understanding at least.

Although I guess it is difficult, since as was pointed out, reasoning here is based more on emotional response and personal passions than any kind of objective logic. Still, I think it's unfair to assume one can't take a scholarly approach to popular music just because most people don't default to doing so.

And for the record, I enjoy a lot of Nirvana, Minus the Bear are alright now and again and Radiohead are good but far from untouchable.

02-23-2010, 04:06 PM	#1 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	Why message boards go down hill. There was quite a bit of speculation a few months back on how this site was going downhill. With Jackhammer's recent departure, its come up again with the Mods and I wanted to offer my 2 cents about why it happens, not just on musicbanter, but with the world at large. Theres a reason people continue to watch political punditry even after the same issues are dredged up every 2 years. Theres a reaon why everyone hates Rolling Stone, despite being the biggest music oriented magazine state-side. With regard to the former, in the heat of opposition, opinion becomes conviction. With the latter, opposition forces take on a "king of the hill" role. Eventually there is a position taken, it is standardized which is held as truth after a given time period becomes fact. Rolling Stone is bull** because the same useless and tired old warhorses are trotted out for their annual blow job and we're all supposed to stand and applaud as these elitist journalists with $5 hair cuts tell us about authenticity and "freshness" with a thesaurus's remix of the same old line. Once this line of rhetoric becomes standardized, those who rebel to rebel take up a counter-culture camp with the hollow rationale of "rebellion" but they do little to move on a given opinion. Most are happy to call the Beatles terrible, or announce their undying passion for Daniel Johnson. These are not opinions, they are part-time filler for empty personalities. The character-equivelent of foam shiping-peanuts. Message boards co-opt that musical snobbery that is so prevelent in the music/journalism industry at the very cost of the interest in the boards. It does this because of two major reasons; for one thing, the pseudo-intellectual posturing that occurs is rarely based in logic. It would be near impossible to do this given that music is traditionally an emotional response. Still, because there is no right or wrong answer, arguments are reduced to horrible posturing and medals are often given to the loudest, with the snarkiest lines. This atmosphere of bullying lends itself to the solidification of opinion. Secondly, and I think this is bigger - most forum posters are ing vaginas. I've said prior, most show up here with whatever opinions happened to stick to them as they walked through life. No one comes to MB as a "scholar" because those people are generally touting how great jazz and classical are, and they find no responses here. That and their ***s. So your average Joe shows up to these boards and is promtly savaged with a 4-Iron by clueless dopes who not only think Minus the Bear is Jesus, but revers them with the same regard that the scholars revere Jazz and Classical. The larger differece being that Minus the Bear sucks, and we do respond to Indie threads. Once these Johnny 6-packs are abused enough they either leave, or start to conform. And they don't kind of conform, they jump in whole hog and beat the hell out of the newbie wave behind them. They are assisted by the few that had just finished beating them, and who are now just as snarky but with less fire. Eventually those folks become established or leave, and the final tier of a forum poster becomes somewhat of a seasoned veteran in musical exploration and argument. Even still, old habits die hard and conventional wisdom is questioned but rarely explored. And thats the problem. This penthouse class of posters doesn't weild its experience like a weapon to slaughter sacred cows, they sit, kowtowed to the systems and norms that were in place when they showed up here. In an ever-evolving world like music, how could discussion ever become boring? With access as easy as it is now, how could the well run dry? It can't, and it doesn't, still people look across the forums, through a large expanse we've all paved with two hands and a keyboard and we think to ourselves that its all been done. This is because we've agreed that Nirvana actually sucked, Radiohead is so untouchable they shouldn't be put into groups with other artists, and that there is no redeeming features left to the countless genres we hear on the radio. These ideas are only challenged when some doe-eyed newbie shows up, who only wants to come to a place to talk about music and is quickly questioned on his intellectual abilities by a group of hatemongers (sorry Urban) who were too weak-minded to defend themselves at the gates opening. People have said in the course of this discussion that they were thinking of leaving or that this place had become so boring that would check in weekly at best. I'd guess that few things would be better for the longevity of the boards. Your opinions are here, you're here in spirit. But we've survived a liteny of great posters leaving before; Pastor of Muppets, Ethan's 42 user names, Swim, Satchmo twice, Jr, and despite his part-time *****ry, Bill good make a great point when he wanted to. I understand wanting to show up here for battle and seeing the field abandoned can be frustrating. But the effort of one new point, in a world of a countless trillions, can't be that hard. And if we all did it, even once a week there wouldn't be a problem. But in order to do this, we're going to have to challenge our own ideas, and the musicbanter conventional wisdom, if we're going to make it work. I'm going to go post about the problems with Metallica. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. __________________ I've moved to a new address

02-23-2010, 04:47 PM	#6 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	These are definitely the sentiments I share, now that I have been posting here for a couple months. It really can seem repetitive at times. Personally, I try to avoid bashing a band someone likes (especially if the person is new). Granted, there have been times where I can't help but give my opinion on how terrible a popular band is just because it is frustrating to me that people don't know about the "underground" music that is so much better (well...to me, i guess). I guess the hope I had coming here was that I would meet people who have a passion for music like I do, and that I would be able to find some great new music I would have otherwise never found. MB has definitely done this. It is easy to figure out what music is popular these days, but that is not why I listen to music. I think the fact that people come and go so quickly is less due to the fact that people are ready and willing to tear them down and more about how the "elite" that stick around are so much into to music that all the stuff we tend to recommend to your average joe, they have never heard of. That gets intimidating. Checking out the "Albums Your Digging" and seeing album after album of absolutely unrecognizable music makes a casual fan feel unready to participate, and then they don't. I'm sure if we all restricted our discussion to "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" we would actually get a bit more activity. The sad fact remains, however, that being as enthusiastic about music as we stayers are is rare. I know I don't meet many when I'm out and about. Even so, we do exist. And I think this forum could stay strong, even with your periodic fluctuations in activity. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

02-23-2010, 04:53 PM	#7 (permalink)
stormjh Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 161	It's not just people recommending unheard of music to people, or moaning about your favourite band, it's people acting like ****s when they do it. __________________ Sig removed by mod.

02-23-2010, 05:00 PM	#9 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	^ Perfect. This needs to happen. Agreed 100%. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

02-23-2010, 05:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
Nine Black Poppies Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: A State of Denial Posts: 357	On a related note, there's an undercurrent inherent in the kind of musical snobbery being talked about here that I've always found rather... I dunno, unsettling, I suppose. It basically comes down to the idea that having a critical perspective on art (music in this case) seems to be more about disliking things than actually liking them, finding something wrong in the taste of the less educated. IE: "That thing you like sucks because this thing you've never heard of is better" instead of "That thing you like is sort of like this thing that I like that you've never heard of, but here's what's cool about my thing." There's something of an ugly undercurrent of art-as-social-currency in that, as well as a... for lack of a better word, laziness or lack of understanding at least. Although I guess it is difficult, since as was pointed out, reasoning here is based more on emotional response and personal passions than any kind of objective logic. Still, I think it's unfair to assume one can't take a scholarly approach to popular music just because most people don't default to doing so. And for the record, I enjoy a lot of Nirvana, Minus the Bear are alright now and again and Radiohead are good but far from untouchable. __________________ Like carnivores to carnal pleasures, so were we to desperate measures...

02-23-2010, 04:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
storymilo Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,845	wait jackhammer departed?

02-23-2010, 04:58 PM	#8 (permalink)
right-track Atchin' Akai Join Date: May 2005 Location: Unamerica Posts: 8,723	I believe these forums have gone as far as they can go for a message board. Unless going around in circles counts for something. I think most of the old member accounts share that sentiment and the ones who haven't left, or died of boredom struggle to post something they haven't already posted before. The MB Reader injected a bit of life back into the boards and extended the interest level while at the same time helping to raise the bar. My opinion on the future of Music Banter is that the old place needs a facelift and a slightly different direction. It needs to evolve from a community message board to an amatuer online music magazine without losing it's community spirit. Under the present Admin I doubt that will ever happen.