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Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody
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I absolutely don't trust FAIR:
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Originally Posted by Southern Poverty Law Center
The founder, chief ideologue and long-time funder of FAIR is a racist. Key staff members have ties to white supremacist groups, some are members, and some have spoken at hate group functions. FAIR has accepted more than $1 million from a racist foundation devoted to studies of race and IQ, and to eugenics — the pseudo-science of breeding a better human race that was utterly discredited by the Nazi euthanasia program. It spreads racist conspiracy theories[...]
FAIR is the hub of the American nativist movement, the group that more than any other has contributed to the rancid turn the national immigration discussion has taken. With FAIR fanning the flames of xenophobic intolerance, hate groups, hate crimes and hate speech directed at foreigners and Latinos continue to rise in America.
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But it doesn't matter because you're not responding to the substance of my argument -
even if this costs the government money, you don't show me any evidence that that's causing tax increases and you don't give me any reason why this is the place we need to be making cuts. (ETA: And you never give a reason why it's not okay to have increased spending if we're giving social services to people who need them.)
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In terms of wages, it doesn't effect the middle class, the "upper" middle class actually benefits. It's the native born "working class" that are impacted. Mass legal immigration has also been shown to impact native born labourers negatively.
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Okay, yeah, absolutely. I never said anything about whether I personally benefit from immigration, and I never said it mattered whether I benefit. This is irrelevant because you aren't responding to my arguments saying that, to the extent there is downward pressure on wages, it's because immigration policy isn't liberal enough. I'm giving you a warrant that makes sense, don't try to pretend that I'm just making this debate about me.
You also refuse to provide any evidence that shows wages decreasing - I assume you got that initial number from FAIR as well, so my earlier objections apply there - so here's some evidence which says that, if anything, the opposite happens.
Look first to
these two researchers who seem to have a pretty new and improved approach to the whole thing, who conclude that immigration has a small positive effect on average native wages and either no effect or an insubstantial negative effect on unskilled wages (measured as wages of workers with no high-school degree). They spend a decent amount of time (I think sections 2.5 and 5.1, plus the introduction) explaining why the studies you might find supporting your position are flawed.
Then, try the Economic Policy Institute. They
say:
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Originally Posted by EPI
In the ongoing debate on immigration, there is broad agreement among academic economists that it has a small but positive impact on the wages of native-born workers overall: although new immigrant workers add to the labor supply, they also consume goods and services, which creates more jobs[...]
The estimated effect of immigration from 1994 to 2007 was to raise the wages of U.S.-born workers, relative to foreign-born workers, by 0.4% (or $3.68 per week)[...]
For workers with less than a high school education, the relative wage effect of immigration was similar to the overall effect. U.S.-born workers with less than a high school education saw a relative 0.3% increase in wages (or $1.58 per week)[...]
Female U.S.-born workers with less than a high school education experienced a relative increase in wages of 1.1% due to immigration.
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So, yeah, there is no downward pressure on wages for native-born Americans. This evidence is talking about both legal and illegal immigration - I would agree that there's probably a higher likelihood illegal immigration pushes down wages
in the short term, but, once again, further liberalization could solve that problem.
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Don't take this personally, I asked if you were middle class because whenever I encounter someone on the net giving someone else lectures on immigration or diversity, its always some politically correct middle class twat who grew up in a comfortable home environment. I often find that they are people who never got over being bullied in high school, and therefore often bear grudge against their own culture by championing every socialist agenda on the planet no matter who it adversely impacts. If they had to grind through life they would have a completely different outlook.
Bit of a rant there, but it really, really gets my goat.
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"Don't take this personally but you're a twat." Thanks man.
This is generally sort of stupid and uncalled for, and it doesn't matter at the point where you aren't responding to my actual arguments. Good try. (I'd still love to hear an explanation for the reasoning in the bolded bit though.)