Oriphiel

*Neward Thelman uses Shame*

*Batlord gains 10 hp*

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Raskolnikov

Any Vampire Weekend fans in the house? Their first album, which had great commercial and critical success, has a whole lot of classical influence (Chopin, Bach, etc). They incorporated plenty of "world" influences as well (afrobeat, ska). I wouldn't say either of those areas of music are "relevant" to a lot of people, but Vampire Weekend certainly is. (they're my favorite band so pardon my bias).

I also love this quote from the writer Susan Sontag: "And I’ve certainly learned something as a writer from the way Schnabel plays Beethoven, Glenn Gould plays Bach, and Mitsuko Uchida plays Mozart." That's from an interview in 1995, and Sontag is most certainly a "relevant" writer. Tolstoy wrote a whole story named after Beethoven's Kreutzer sonata, Nietzsche cited Beethoven and Wagner plenty in his philosophical works, which continue to influence the cultural elite. And how about Kubrick's use of classical music in his films? Strauss in 2001, Penderecki in The Shining, Beethoven in Clockwork Orange. Personally, since the US 2016 election, I've been fascinated by the music of Shostakovich (composed under Stalin's totalitarian regime) and Wagner's operas, particularly the ring cycle (horrifically appropriated by the Nazis, but beautiful, wildly sensual music nonetheless).

Besides that, classical concerts in the US, and moreso in Europe and Asia, continue to sell out audiences in huge concert halls. The Metropolitan Opera's livestream of Renee Fleming's final performance as the heroine in Strauss' opera "Der Rosenkavalier" was the highest-grossing in box offices a few weekends ago. The Elbphilarmonie, a MASSIVE and extremely expensive new concert hall in Germany, just recently opened as well. There's plenty of evidence for classical music's continued relevance.

But more important than any of that, I think, is if it's relevant to you personally. Does classical music (whether it's Bach, Beethoven, or Boulez) make you feel something? Do you get joy out of it? Does it clarify things for you? Is it interesting to you on a purely intellectual level? Do you get joy from playing it yourself, or watching your friends or loved ones play it? That, I think, is what matters, not simply whether it's enjoyed by a large enough swath of the population or gets enough playtime on the radio. Regardless of whether it's relevant, it exists, the recordings are out there, plenty of people listen to it, it continues to exert outsized influence on modern popular culture, and we ought to seek as much enjoyment as we can from it.

Frownland

I would agree that it's relevant (see my other posts in this thread), but I think this point is confounded a bit by how classical music (especially operas) are sort of a status symbol among many people. There are still plenty of fans in the audience, but I think that there's a significant number of people at those sold out shows who have no interest in the music whatsoever.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Raskolnikov

I'm sure you're right, but how would we know how many people are there to just show off/rub shoulders with the hoi polloi? Besides that, I think it's fine to have intentions besides pure musical enjoyment for going to a concert. To me, besides the music, it's thrilling just to watch the musicians play and communicate with each other and the audience. Theater folks with no interest in classical music may go to the opera just for the dramatic elements. Last year, the opera in my city put on Das Rheingold in an absolutely fascinating and innovative production, with much of the orchestra on stage, cyperpunk-inspired costumes, etc. Not to mention, quite a relevant story for November 2016. All this to say, I don't think there's anything wrong with people having different reasons for going to live performances of classical music, so long as they aren't there to disrupt the experience of other people. I actually think it's kind of great that people can get so many different things out of a classical music performance than just the music itself. The halls are often beautiful, and for me, even being in the presence of the performance of a Beethoven symphony or the like makes me feel connected to a long, long cultural tradition. Even if I were deaf, I would probably still enjoy going to the symphony just for that reason.

Frownland

BUT THEY'RE POSEURS!

As childish as that sounds, I do actually kind of have a problem with people going to concerts just to be associated with the wealthy. It somewhat dilutes the concert experience and connects an unnecessary power distance to the genre that I think would be better done away with.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Raskolnikov

Is this something you've seen a lot of, or you know people who do this? I have a hard time imagining people spending money on orchestra tickets and sitting still for two hours just to be associated with the wealthier folks in the audience. I worked as an usher for a while for the orchestra in my city, which is quite accessible to people of all class backgrounds, but I've never observed anyone coming to a concert just for that reason. And if they did, I'm sure they got more out of it than a chance to be in the presence of the 1%. I'm just curious as to where you've seen people doing that, or how you'd identify it if they were.

Frownland

It's a pretty common place for people to go dress up, be nice, and feel classy for a night. I've had workmates (I work in the mortgage industry in San Diego, so yuppies are abound) say they were going to to the orchestra and when I follow up with classical music discussion (which composer? what kind do you like?), they usually say something along the lines of "oh I just go because it's nice." These people are typically desperate slaves to social custom and would break their fingers if it was the socially correct/propelling thing to do.

I actually think it's becoming less common the more we move away from classical music being exclusively for kings and royal elite, but it's still present.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Raskolnikov

I think this kind of exclusion is a big part of what turns ordinary folks off to classical music--the pretense that you have to know something about 19th century music to be able to enjoy it, or even be accepted by the audience at the hall. I know next to nothing about sports, but I'd be a little put off if one of my coworkers drilled me on teams/players/stats after I mentioned that I'm going to a basketball game that night. Does that make me a slave to social customs?

You're right about classical music having a strong association with aristocracy and royal patronage, but I think that hurts it a whole lot more than it helps it. I think a lot more people would be exposed to and benefit from classical music if there weren't such a strong perception that you need education, insider knowledge, wealth and power to enjoy it. If someone wants a good excuse to get dressed up, have a nice dinner and enjoy the whole concert hall experience, why should you stop them? After all, they're putting their money into the same orchestras that folks like you and me are, which allows them to keep performing that beautiful music. You shouldn't need any cultural credentials to enjoy or be welcome at the symphony.

Frownland

This doesn't really reflect what I described though, it's more that their lack of knowledge reflects how they view the genre.

If you were going to the game to get laid or something, then the answer is yes.

I'm not stopping them. I'm just saying that their prevalence weakens your point of concert attendance proving classical music's relevancy. Also I find that kind of person to be annoying.

See this is actually why I don't want people to go see an orchestra for the reasons mentioned earlier: it reinforces the idea that you do need cultural credentials to be welcome at the symphony.

Also very happy to see a new member so willing to get into a deep discussion. Hope you stick around mate.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Raskolnikov

I see what you're saying--concert attendance is only a reliable metric of relevancy insofar as the music is relevant to the people in attendance. That's an important point, and one that I'd agree with. Apologies if it was lost on me.

I generally agree with you here, especially since the people who know the least about classical music are the most likely to dismiss it as an archaic, aristocratic, or irrelevant genre of music. Those kinds of people annoy me too. But, we should be more forgiving of people who are at least willing to give it a try, even if their intentions aren't totally pure. What better way to begin an education in classical music than at the concert hall?

It's easy when it's folks who are as thoughtful and intelligent as you! Thanks for the warm welcome