The Wow I Can't Believe That News Story Thread

[jwb]

But the only examples of a complex society like our own working has always had the basic apparatus of the state as the Monopoly of force. This has always been true since the dawn of civilization. Because as soon as we developed the ability to create a surplus of goods, there were hordes of bandits looking to raid that surplus.

More primitive, stateless societies like tribes never exceed a certain size and they don't create the same kind of surplus or wealth.

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

Are you asking me that question, Frownland? I'm puzzled because I'm suggesting they should be treated similarly to other regular professions.

Yes, and I was asking you that to see if there are any circumstances that would change that opinion.

^ Bold bit #1: strictly speaking, the police shouldn't be blamed for unethical laws as they are not the ones writing the laws. They can be blamed though, for over-zealous application of unethical laws, and of that, I'm sure they are frequently guilty.

"We were just following orders."

Bold bit #2: I suspect that official training is to enforce laws equally.

What makes you think that?

I also want to clarify that I'm only talking about American police.

[Lisnaholic]

Originally Posted by Frownland

Yes, and I was asking you that to see if there are any circumstances that would change that opinion.

^ I need to think about that

"We were just following orders."

^ HaHa! This is a very good point too.

What makes you think that?

^ Isn't there something about "equality under the law" in the constitution? And if a law says for instance, "Stop a guy who's driving too fast" that would be the official training. If a policeman gets the message, "Stop a guy who's driving too fast, especially if he's black" I wouldn't call that training myself, I'd put that down to a culture of racism at a local level.

Actually I have to go out now, but will come back to your other points if I can think up some decent answers.

[Deaa]

Originally Posted by Frownland

Just trust me on this one.

Can't a girl hate cops in peace

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

I'll have to think about that.

It's something I try to ask myself to avoid becoming too dogmatic about any one stance.

^ Isn't there something about "equality under the law" in the constitution? And if a law says for instance, "Stop a guy who's driving too fast" that would be the official training. If a policeman gets the message, "Stop a guy who's driving too fast, especially if he's black" I wouldn't call that training myself, I'd put that down to a culture of racism at a local level.

Yes, that's covered under the 14th amendment. That said, most of the inequal laws are not explicitly unequally applied but are designed to have unequal outcomes. See: the drug war, softness towards Hell's Angels while being hard on Crips, border control, the list goes on. As far as training goes, the ways in which police are trained to identify criminal behaviour aligns with hierarchical norms that result in the targeting of minority communities.

Also, one thing that aligns a little more closely with the localized element that you mentioned is that we train our policemen to shoot to kill when they fear for their safety instead of deescalating the situation, and the application of that often aligns with aforementioned hierarchical norms. Then there's the undeniable disparity in accountability for police brutality based on who the victim is.

It's not as blatantly racist as the 3/5ths rule, but the inequality is certainly there. The subtlety is what's kept it in place for so long tbf. If you aren't super familiar with American police then it can seem silly but these mfs are sneaky.

Wait, don't you live in Mexico? How do you feel about the police there if you don't mind me asking?

Originally Posted by Deaa

Can't a girl hate cops in peace

Please do.

[jwb]

I don't even disagree way the police interact with communities is problematic and that there are basic structural problems with the current state of things, but...

I don't understand what that has to do with splashing water on cops, hating cops specifically, or fantasizing about a world without them. How exactly does any of this help the problems you identified?

[Deaa]

My issue isn't fundamentally with specific examples of """problematic""" police treatment, that's just the nasty cherry on top.

[Frownland]

@jwbs

Much like Antifa streetfighters, I think the water dousing is detrimental to solving the problem. As far as hating cops, I don't think that solves the problem outside of stigmatizing the profession to keep people from prolonging it, but that doesn't mean that it isn't justified.

As far as solving problems goes, I think that near-Draconian punishment of the abuse of power is the first step. There's the prospect of refining the law to be more just but I think you're only asking for realistic solutions so I won't waste your time with that.

[Deaa]

[Deaa]

lets just give everyone a gun