Oh yay, another political thread! (Prop 8, gay marriage stuff)

[TheBig3]

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

What I was more getting at was if supports of gay marriage argue it in the right way the opposition can be backed into a corner to phrase it in a manner that would just be perceived as horrendous (e.g. it's the government's job to tell two consenting adults what their preferences out and who they can spend their lives with.)

I'm perfectly aware what the Republicans mean by small government - they don't mean lower taxes they mean lower it on the wealthy. Bush raised the taxes on the lower-middle/middle class to compensate for the people he gave tax cuts too. It's no coincidence that over his administration the middle class steadily started shrinking as more and more people started slipping below the poverty line.

Well I hear what you're saying but it can't be done with feelings or emotions. I had a professer in college who was homosexual, and oddly enough, she was an ordained episcopalian minister. She also gave us this argument one day thats really bothered me ever since...

"there trying the argument now that its not a choice and that we're born this way and it should be a right, but I don't want it to be a matter of genetics and nature, I want them to acknowledge that I'm an adult and I have a choice."

What I saw that day wasn't sound logic for a population segment who wanted to get married, I saw a talking point for her to feel morally superior. As I continue to digest lefty-thought more and more, I keep seeing victories lost because the Right wants to win, and the Left wants to be right (correct).

I'm a nerd and I watch speeches on Youtube like its my job, and I continue to watch MLKJ's last speech, mostly for its cadence but you can't let the message go. He doesn't ever come out and say "we should get civil rights because we're adults and we should" he hammers home the point on contradiction based on law. He opens with the phrase...

"All we say to America is be true to what ya said on paper." (or at least in the longest clip we can find he does) and thats the point.

Good logic says, "hey there people too, they should get what we get." but the Right, again on the losing side, sticks, with great discipline, to their positions that only sorta make sense and constantly say them until its an accepted position.

If the left, for just once in their lives stopped pretending this was a Disney flick, and starting playing hardball like peoples lives were at stake here, this country would look a lot different.

And thats why I love Obama, they asked him about it and he stuck to the Constitution. He guns for positions from the outset, he lets Biden work the gears in the background and he stands up front and rest on orrefutible law. I couldn't be happier that he's the man who won, and I'm proud to say I voted for him because for once I don't have a President leading the country and pussyfooting around with the opposition. I think if Clinton got in we'd have some "don't ask, don't tell" approach again.

[Meph1986]

California high court upholds *** marriage ban though allows existing marriages to stand.

[sleepy jack]

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog

And thats why I love Obama, they asked him about it and he stuck to the Constitution. He guns for positions from the outset, he lets Biden work the gears in the background and he stands up front and rest on orrefutible law. I couldn't be happier that he's the man who won, and I'm proud to say I voted for him because for once I don't have a President leading the country and pussyfooting around with the opposition. I think if Clinton got in we'd have some "don't ask, don't tell" approach again.

I don't really understand this post at all. While Biden/Obama are both in favor of civil unions neither has had the balls to say they're in support of gay marriage. They like - like most Democrats - have successfully skirted around the issue and will probably keep doing so until they're 4/8 years is up.

[adidasss]

Originally Posted by Meph1986

California high court upholds *** marriage ban though allows existing marriages to stand.

Bummer...:\

[IamAlejo]

Originally Posted by Meph1986

California high court upholds *** marriage ban though allows existing marriages to stand.

I'm glad they did. Not that I'm anti-homosexual, but I'm pro-not overturning decisions of voters.

[anticipation]

californians are being so gay about this marriage situation, homosexuals should be allowed to marry.

[TheBig3]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

I'm glad they did. Not that I'm anti-homosexual, but I'm pro-not overturning decisions of voters.

Exactly. Theres quite a bit of hatred for the Supreme Court but there really ought not to be.

If people put their effort into voting, which is easier, more effective, and less time consuming than standing outside of the courts, "boo-ing" and protesting, this wouldn't even be an issue.

The thing that drives me crazy is that California could have won this easily, but when the rights of individuals to be treated equally came up, California went to bed.

And now their pissed? They absolutly screwed the movement in the res of the country who was hoping to carry the momentum. This is going to effect New Hampshire, and I hope to god it passes in 2010 because we're never going to get Mississippi if we can't get California.

@Ethan - Obama is still doing what I want. Dennis Kucinich comes out with positions because he believes in them and we get no where.

Obama is going to skirt the issue, and its going to get done. He's smarter when it comes to politics than anyone could probably guess. And with Biden working the gears, he'll get more done by keeping the dust settled than by taking a righteous stand.

Maybe some don't agree with that. I can understand it. But to me, the rights of the people matter more than how people think we stand. Obama has gotten more done appearing to be centrist, and exploiting the liberal portion of the media than anyone openly Left could do.

I don't care what you say, I care what you do. Obama is making quite a bit happen, who cares about Grandstanding?

[Janszoon]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

I'm glad they did. Not that I'm anti-homosexual, but I'm pro-not overturning decisions of voters.

I'm not happy about it but I agree with you about not overturning the decisions of voters. I don't really blame the supreme court at all for this situation, the blame rests squarely on the 52% of California voters who voted yes on prop 8 back in November. Those are the people who need a smack upside the head.

[IamAlejo]

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I'm not happy about it but I agree with you about not overturning the decisions of voters. I don't really blame the supreme court at all for this situation, the blame rests squarely on the 52% of California voters who voted yes on prop 8 back in November. Those are the people who need a smack upside the head.

To go further, and I still stand by what I originally said....BUT

What if the majority vote to deny a basic right to a certain part of the public [***s here, others elsewhere]? When does it draw the line where the government must step in to maintain it's duty to restore equity under the law? It's a slippery slope with no real correct answer I guess. What about polygamists? Just figured I'd play devil's advocate for a sec.

[Janszoon]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

To go further, and I still stand by what I originally said....BUT

What if the majority vote to deny a basic right to a certain part of the public [***s here, others elsewhere]? When does it draw the line where the government must step in to maintain it's duty to restore equity under the law? It's a slippery slope with no real correct answer I guess. What about polygamists? Just figured I'd play devil's advocate for a sec.

All good points. It's always a balancing act.