Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice

Miltamec Soundsquinaez · 06-20-2009, 07:21 PM

I'm very noncommittal on this issue, but a lot of the arguing comes down to this simple topic - Is the entity in the womb a living child or merely a fetus. Why don't pro-choicers ever say this, "Look, what does a living person need to breathe?" Oxygen, right. So, theoretically if a grown man was to stick his head up into a woman's vagina, or even the uterus, how long would he survive? My guess is not even until he got really thirsty, let alone several months.

Guybrush · 06-20-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheUsed2lguy

I'm very noncommittal on this issue, but a lot of the arguing comes down to this simple topic - Is the entity in the womb a living child or merely a fetus. Why don't pro-choicers ever say this, "Look, what does a living person need to breathe?" Oxygen, right. So, theoretically if a grown man was to stick his head up into a woman's vagina, or even the uterus, how long would he survive? My guess is not even until he got really thirsty, let alone several months.

The fetus gets oxygen from it's mother. The mother breathes, the oxygen goes into her blood and her blood goes into the fetus.

You know this, right?

I think the difference between a fetus and a person is really in what they can experience. That's the first thing I'd mention at least.

Kool_Dude_HaMeR · 06-20-2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheUsed2lguy

...if a grown man was to stick his head up into a woman's vagina

never done me any harm.

Miltamec Soundsquinaez · 06-20-2009, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

The fetus gets oxygen from it's mother. The mother breathes, the oxygen goes into her blood and her blood goes into the fetus.

You know this, right?

I think the difference between a fetus and a person is really in what they can experience. That's the first thing at least.

OK, well an adult has oxygen in his blood, so by that rationale, they would be able to breathe with their head inside a woman's vagina, simply because they have oxygen in their blood?

Hesher · 06-21-2009, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheUsed2lguy

OK, well an adult has oxygen in his blood, so by that rationale, they would be able to breathe with their head inside a woman's vagina, simply because they have oxygen in their blood?

This argument is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the fetus achieving consciousness or sentience and does not act as a serious medical sign that the fetus has become human. Some bacteria take in oxygen as well, for example, although they do it by osmosis. It isn't a sign of humanity to be able to breathe underwater or to only be able to breathe in air, and the fact that a fetus/baby is able to breathe oxygen while suspended in fluid has nothing to do with it either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

I think the difference between a fetus and a person is really in what they can experience. That's the first thing I'd mention at least.

I understand that you are examining this discussion from a philosophical/ethical perspective rather than a medical one, but using that gauge, a fetus cannot "experience" anything human until a while before birth, by which time it is a viable baby and essentially a small human. By this time, the vast majority of people do not have abortions. We agree but I'm just saying. Most abortions happen before the fetus has even developed enough spinal and brain tissue to control it's own body rhythms, much less think or take in information.

Guybrush · 06-21-2009, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hesher

I understand that you are examining this discussion from a philosophical/ethical perspective rather than a medical one, but using that gauge, a fetus cannot "experience" anything human until a while before birth, by which time it is a viable baby and essentially a small human. By this time, the vast majority of people do not have abortions. We agree but I'm just saying. Most abortions happen before the fetus has even developed enough spinal and brain tissue to control it's own body rhythms, much less think or take in information.

I very much agree with you which is part why I'm pro-choice (maybe you should read my longer post up there). The average adult human can experience a range of sensory input and emotions which I don't think the typcal aborted fetus can. That's why when you have a mother carrying a fetus and she wants an abortion, you should extend more moralistic concern for the mother than the fetus.

Hesher · 06-21-2009, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

That's why when you have a mother carrying a fetus and she wants an abortion, you should extend more moralistic concern for the mother than the fetus.

That would follow, yes. In fact, I believe that most of the ethical issues people have with abortion are more empathetic reactions to the psychological toll that any kind of miscarriage has on a potential mother.

I did actually read your above post and appreciated/agreed with it.

Guybrush · 06-21-2009, 03:27 AM

I think religion imay also be a big stick in the wheels when it comes to abortions. Although I can't remember anyone bringing it up, but I think the commandment "you shall not murder" (f.ex) must be a reason for some pro-lifers.

Hesher · 06-21-2009, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

I think religion imay also be a big stick in the wheels when it comes to abortions. Although I can't remember anyone bringing it up, but I think the commandment "you shall not murder" (f.ex) must be a reason for some pro-lifers.

Killing a non-sentient organism isn't murder anymore than using antibiotic hand soap is genocide, but then again, logic doesn't really enter into the plane of religion.

Miltamec Soundsquinaez · 06-21-2009, 01:37 PM

[QUOTE=Hesher;687306]
a fetus cannot "experience" anything human until a while before birth, by which time it is a viable baby and essentially a small human. By this time, the vast majority of people do not have abortions. [QUOTE]
Do you have any science to back up what you are saying? I know a fetus develops a heartbeat after only about 3 months, and I'm not too sure about the brain activity, but I'm just amazed that you have this kind of information. I've just learned from the basis of your argument that indisputably 1st term abortions are OK, and late terms may/may not be. I know I'm being a little sarcastic, but seriously, could you explain what you mean by 'experience anything human'? because this might be a big bolster to the religious/scientific communities

edit: also please elaborate 'a while before birth'. A while could mean a few seconds or 9 months depending on who you talk to

06-20-2009, 07:21 PM	#151 (permalink)
Miltamec Soundsquinaez Aural melody discerner Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: in a truck down by the interstate Posts: 347	I'm very noncommittal on this issue, but a lot of the arguing comes down to this simple topic - Is the entity in the womb a living child or merely a fetus. Why don't pro-choicers ever say this, "Look, what does a living person need to breathe?" Oxygen, right. So, theoretically if a grown man was to stick his head up into a woman's vagina, or even the uterus, how long would he survive? My guess is not even until he got really thirsty, let alone several months. __________________ Hello, my name is Luka. I live on the 2nd floor.

06-21-2009, 03:27 AM	#158 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	I think religion imay also be a big stick in the wheels when it comes to abortions. Although I can't remember anyone bringing it up, but I think the commandment "you shall not murder" (f.ex) must be a reason for some pro-lifers. __________________ Something Completely Different

06-21-2009, 01:37 PM	#160 (permalink)
Miltamec Soundsquinaez Aural melody discerner Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: in a truck down by the interstate Posts: 347	[QUOTE=Hesher;687306] a fetus cannot "experience" anything human until a while before birth, by which time it is a viable baby and essentially a small human. By this time, the vast majority of people do not have abortions. [QUOTE] Do you have any science to back up what you are saying? I know a fetus develops a heartbeat after only about 3 months, and I'm not too sure about the brain activity, but I'm just amazed that you have this kind of information. I've just learned from the basis of your argument that indisputably 1st term abortions are OK, and late terms may/may not be. I know I'm being a little sarcastic, but seriously, could you explain what you mean by 'experience anything human'? because this might be a big bolster to the religious/scientific communities edit: also please elaborate 'a while before birth'. A while could mean a few seconds or 9 months depending on who you talk to __________________ Hello, my name is Luka. I live on the 2nd floor. Last edited by Miltamec Soundsquinaez; 06-21-2009 at 01:54 PM.