Schizotypic

Boo Boo, what specifically gave you the idea that modern feminism was oppressing woman? Just out of curiosity. Like, where are you pulling this assumption from?

VeggieLover

the straining for elegance is what makes us human. Whether or not the fight is ever "won" is really beside the point. Striving for an ideal sets the stage for progress, without it we fall into lethargy. How many revolutions have been staged on the basis of creating a classless utopian society? Have any of them succeeded for any length of time? no, but does that mean that we should stop trying to make the world a place where anyone and everyone should have the opportunities to provide for themselves and their families in a way that goes beyond survival? However, Feminism is a movement that has not only provided women with a purpose and a cause, but also has made tremendous progress in changing the way women (and all humans) are viewed in society today. We are that much closer to the ideal. When men, women, blacks, whites, browns (or blues for that matter!), jews, christians, muslims, and pagans alike can be treated in society equally -- to a society when the people who deserve something get it...regardless of "who they are".

Feminism doesn't fight the media simply because it portrays "pretty," thin, large busted women, because yes, these women do exist and should be allowed -- nay, encouraged-- to feel pretty. The problem arises when these women are ALL thats shown in the media. When they are presented as the ONLY ideal of beauty. How many little girls have grown up watching the mentioned Disney movies, how many have been trained to want as their most powerful attribute a tall, thin, big eyed body in order to attract prince charming! These things aren't bad, but when they are held higher in esteem than good conversation, knowledge, humanity, and friendship, they can harbor unhealthy implications. Eating disorders plague millions of girls and women (and yes, men too!), and this in the same world in which millions starve to death! Being thin and fit is NOT bad, its just been elevated to a position it never should have reached. We as people need to start putting forth ideals more balanced, rearrange our priorities, and then the media will reflect that.

You argue that men never complain about the way the media portrays them in the media, well I say, you should! Feminism has gathered momentum because women have been oppressed for soo long. If the media (which can be considered the visual embodiment of a society) oppresses the image of the ideal man, then fight it! There is a lot more to life than sex and sexuality, in case you didn't notice.


You are oppressing feminists in the same way that you argue they oppress the rest of women and men. Not all feminists (indeed, not even the majority!) strive to catagorize women into "GI janes." Infact, that incredible generalization is exactly what the ideals of feminism are agianst. People are radically different from eachother, whether they are male or female, and whenever we try and put large groups of people into little boxes based on the actions of a few radicals, well thats what we should all try and fight.

Also, you say women should dress/act sexy if they want to. The question is... would they want to if the media and our society handled sexuality and attractive-ness differently? Would you be so attracted to the thin large-breasted women if you hadn't been raised to do so?

Personally it offends me that the photo of Beth Ditto is such a big deal. Larger women (and men) shouldn't have any more reason to be ashamed of their bodies than anyone else. We're all human!

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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

Inuzuka Skysword

They should be ashamed if that isn't how they want to look. Seriously, ask any fat girl if she would rather be slender. I can guarantee that everyone who is sane would say yes.

"We're all human" isn't a good excuse.

VeggieLover

Would they still answer that way if the ideal woman wasn't stick thin? We really have no way of knowing. Of course there is a point when being too heavy becomes unhealthy, but until that point, there is absolutely no rational reason to be ashamed. Why isn't it a good "excuse"?

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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

boo boo

So you want to get rid of cultural diversity?

Again I never said feminism didn't have a purpose, of course it did. What I'm saying is that there's nothing for feminist activists to do now other than to bitch over stupid sh*t and insult people who don't share their ideals.

Ok, so you're not batsh*t crazy, that's good to know.

I know, but it doesn't justify personally insulting women who do happen to fit that ideal.

Those are all values that ring true for most female leads in Disney films.

Agreed.

And again my problem is that radical feminists do to true feminist ideas what Fred Phelps does to true Christian ideals, they make a mockery of their cause and give it a bad reputation.

It doesn't bother me what the f*cking media does, and feminism is based on the idea that women only know how to do what other people tell them, and I know that's not true.

If a lot of women only want to f*ck A&F models, so what? As unrealistic as that may be, I'm not gonna force my pale hairy nerd ass down their throats because I don't meet their sexual preference.

The idea of feminism should be as basic as women doing whatever the hell they want (and fighting for the right to do it) and not give a damn, not force their ideals down our throats.

I'm talking about a specific attitude just like people talk about a specific attitude when it comes to fundamentalist christians.

It's pretty damn clear I don't think all feminists meet the profile of what I'm talking about. I'm pro diversity and my problem is feminists who contradict themselves.

That's a stupid argument, first off we all take our ideas and values from others, there's nothing wrong with that it's human nature. Also you could make the argument that women only want to make themselves unattractive for the same reason.

What people do or don't do is influenced by their upbringing, I'm aware of that. But while society shapes us to be a certain way, being driven to make yourself into the exact opposite of what society tells you to be and then tell other people that they should be like you and do the same is yet another form of comformity. Actually it's not "another form" at all, it's the same thing, yet at a primitive stage.

I don't hate her because she's ugly, I hate her because she's ugly and she crams it down peoples f*cking throats.

Just a little respect for other peoples ideals and preferences would be nice, if I find someone to be ugly, so what? I don't tell them they're ugly personally, so in return they shouldn't get naked in front of me, call me a sexist and expect me not to tell them what I think.

If people don't like something about you, ignore them, and that includes having the common courtesy not to rub it in their face. Women like Ditty who make a public event out of posing nude for a magazine and get pissed when people give their opinions are only demeaning themselves further.

In other words. A fat ugly woman getting naked in front of me knowing damn well it's gonna get a disgusted reaction is the equivalent of farting in someones face and then bitching at them for gagging.

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boo boo

Agreed, I'm sure there are fat people who are proud to be fat, but I'm very sure it's a minority.

And while I encourage diversity I don't encourage bad self esteem (ok ok, I'm obviously not the poster child for good self image but whatever). I also don't understand how if a woman likes to be fit or put on makeup that automatically means she has bad self esteem. Isn't it possible that they just have some self confidence and actually like the way they look?

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

VEGANGELICA

VeggieLover,
You expressed yourself beautifully in your post (and I'm not just saying that because we both love vegetables). When the media present a certain view of women (or of men) as ideal, then this not only reflects culture but also shapes culture, and often seems to result in people feeling bad about their bodies, which helps no one (except those who produce a myriad of beauty products and get rich off of human insecurities).

I do feel it is important that public policy encourages an understanding of health so that all people, whether heavyset or thin, can know steps to take (no pun intended) to improve their health, but like you I don't want anyone to be ridiculed for her or his body.

Hehe, boo boo, so you must like Sinaed! (YouTube - nothing compares). I thought I recalled reading somewhere else about your affinity for bald women. Bald is beautiful!

People's opinions about bodies are affected not only by genetics but culture, obviously, and that is as it is and I am okay with it. For example, evolutionary biologists might say one reason you prefer women without leg hair is this makes them look more youthful, and there is an evolutionary advantage (higher potential for more offspring) if a male procreates with a younger female. When someone's appearance becomes the main characteristic that others think of when dealing with that person, though, that concerns me, especially if they treat a person disrespectfully because of her or his appearance.

A lot of your concern seems to revolve around your feeling that you are being told to find all women attractive. I do feel it is understandable that you, like all of us, have your own preferences for beauty and I certainly support you in finding people you feel are attractive. After growing up in a society where women shave, I don't know if even *I* would classify my leg hair as "attractive"...I see it as more just being there and a pleasant reminder that I am a mammal. In my case, I see intellect and non-conformity as attractive (I picked my mate in large part for his beautiful brain), so if I see a man with longer hair I look at him longer and with more interest. I actually think that people appreciating each other for physical as well as personality characteristics is a very healthy and important part of society...attraction and flirting are a nice social glue that bonds people together.

I can understand you not liking moral imperialism. One gripe I have as a feminist is the U.S. version of Sharia laws for women: men can be in public topless, but women get arrested if they have their shirts off. This is an example of sexual oppression (the laws were put in place mainly by men, and I suspect many women are raised to see their breast nudity as "lewd"). I would like to create a different norm: one that results in people wanting laws for women and men to be the same.

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VeggieLover

Good, then we essentially agree with eachother on the big issues. Perhaps you should request another change in the title...rather than targeting feminism you should perhaps proceed to bitch and moan about all the ridiculous radicals and fundamentalists that want everyone to think and act just like them. Oh wait, thats the way the world will always be, people will be idiots! Ironically, thats exactly what I'm doing...wasting my time bitching and moaning about other peoples idiotic behaviors and ideas.
Setting that aside....

of course not. Where did you even get that idea? equal does not mean identical, thats the point. Besides, cultural identities are established based on isolation. Regardless, the more connected the world becomes, the less dramatic cultural differences will get, but that has nothing to do with this topic!

I have yet to meet a true feminist who does this. Granted, I haven't met a whole lot of people due to where I live and my age, and thats where our arguments kind of hit a wall. I think, if you took the time to actually get into a so called "radical feminist's" mind, you'd find that these women are speaking out on behalf of the women who DO feel opressed by the images you are fighting for. The women who are comfortable regardless are what the media says are beside the point, they are not the object.
However, I am convinced that your statement has some merit, and i sorely regret that your exposure to feminism has consisted of such individuals that cannot see the big picture and who are therefore mis-representing the cause.

True. Which is why i personally don't have anything against disney movies (i own probably every one that was made before DVDs became popular ) But i can also understand where they get kind of a bad rep. All the so called ugly people are also mean and evil. Therefore, the elementry conclusion reached is: "if i am pretty, i will be nice and well liked. if i am ugly, people will hate me"

well then for goodness sakes make your case around that specifically rather than condeming the entire movement. You say its clear that your problem is with the radicals, but you consistantly use the word feminism independantly of any mention of these radicals. You aren't being as clear as you think you are, and we can't read your mind, fortunatly

Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean that it isn't an important issue. All people (regardless of gender) are (potentially) highly influenced by the media. There are endless other factors that contribute to eating disorders and other image-obsessive behavior, but the media is an easily targetable, population catering, genre with a lot more wrong with it than "pretty girls"

Thanks, i really appreciate it, calling ppl and their arguments stupid really helps you sound intelligent. Of course its human nature to take our ideas from others! thats my point! We just live in a time where its incrediblly difficult to build a good self image/morals/etc. amoung the constant stream of images and advertisments that is being thrust upon us day in and day out. We could just turn off the TV, but media, if used correctly, could be a tremendous power for good (or at least moral nuetrality). Women can think and act for themselfs, as you said, THUS feminism! However, we are all so used to the negative images we see that we form opinions and biases without even realising it. The point (regarding the media) is to reinstitute a pattern of thought. You interview my fellow highschoolers, and you will be appalled at the level if inactivity that exists in their minds.

either you live in a completely different level of logic than the rest of us, or you totally contradict urself here. If people don't like something about you, ignore them and do whatever the hell you want. Ok, thats consistant. Then you say, "oh, but while your at it, make sure your pleasing all the di.cks in the world who think your an ugly bitch." You don't have to look at her, im pretty sure she doesn't come into your bedroom at night and "fart in your face." if she's comfortable with getting naked for a bunch of cameras, then good for her, the good thing about media is that you CAN turn it off or put it down or whatever. we who have the discretion to do so.. should (and should then proceed to improve it so that we dont have to) But there is this thing called freedom of the press, and we aren't ever going to achieve a pure little media that anyone and everyone can and should watch without extreme censorship (which, i think you will agree, is not desirable). If you dont like looking, then don't go seeking out the pictures.
Personally, I think her behavior stems from a very deep low self-esteem, but what do i know.

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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

boo boo

My main argument has as much to do about behavior as it does appearance if not more so.

Which is what seems to be a war between radical feminism (which is what Schizo calls the second wave, I guess) and feminity itself, and people who find value in it.

And I might add, there's a difference between "challenging" our perception of feminity and just plain sh*tting on it.

While I condone newer generations to find their own voice, I don't think that justifies being a d*ck to people simply because they value the older tradition.

I mean, I can't say that everything I find attractive fits with what society finds attractive either.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

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VeggieLover

It doesn't, i dont think anyones arguing with you on that one

__________________
"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."