Guybrush

You can't assume that by saying something doesn't exist, you're challenging nothing. Just as an example, if you make a statement that God does not exist, that will challenge a whole bunch of people. Most people are not "scientifically sterile" in their beliefs, at least not in this country, so if you only believe in the scientifically proven, that would come into conflict with many beliefs the average person has.

The placebo effect is real. Before new medications can come on the market, they go through blind tests with placebo. Basically, you have test groups that get the medication, either sugar pills or the real thing. It's a blind test because as a participant, you don't know yourself if you got the medication or a fake. For the medication to pass the test and enter the market, it has to have a significant beneficial effect beyond that of the placebo. Significant is a term that basically means proven within some certainty, usually 95% and up, with statistics.

As in my spooky-house-door-close scenario - if you consider healing by crystals f.ex, you can explain it by several hypotheses. Nr. 1 could be that it's a placebo effect. That makes no new assumptions; we know placebos work and that assumption is already integrated and used in medical science. Nr. 2 is that minerals actually have healing powers. Then you have to assume that minerals can have the power to heal people.

I'm not saying it's a totally crazy idea, it could be that it's true, but when you can already explain the phenomena by what we already know without making new assumptions, I tend to prefer that myself.

If there really are ghosts, we will probably prove their existence in the future. Until then, I think we have to accept that people are going to be inclined to believe in them - some get scared of them in the dark, certain television programs will make money on their supposed existence and a whole bunch of people will be comforted in the idea that granny is still there, watching over them. There's a lot that will nudge you in the belief direction regardless of wether it's true or not. I don't believe, but if it's ever proven, I'll accept it. Until then, I can enjoy living in a world which is a little less paradoxal.

When you're a teenager, that's when you start thinking for yourself and so of course you go through a bit of a spiritual search to find something to believe in. I've been there myself and without any religious upbringing, I was intrigued by the fact that so many treatment methods appearantly work, wether it's voodoo or hoaxy electrolytic foot-baths. At some point when I learned more about the power of suggestion, I saw that the most likely explanation was that the effect came from ourselves and not the method .. basically, I found out about the placebo effect which gets thrown around a lot now, perhaps too much, but it is an important step in order to understand ourselves and other people.

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Something Completely Different

The Monkey

There is no evidence that we exist, either. The entire world may be an illusion as far as I know. The only thing I can really know for sure is that "I" exist in some form, as otherwise I couldn't have wondered about my existence in the first place. Descartes was right on that point, although I don't agree with his conclusions (such as God being the only explanation for my existence). However, I do think we have to live under the assumption that the world exists, otherwise society will collapse into nihilism.

But we cannot approach philosophical matters with the methodology of the natural sciences.

VeggieLover

There we go.


As far as the placebo effect, i know that it is real. But i also think that maybe the variety of things that often get classified as working "simply" because of this are perhaps a bit broad. The power of suggestion is perhaps a much more powerful healing method than we give credit for. There are lots of books on natural energy/healing/positive thinking etc. but the one I've read is Woman's body, woman's wisdom....i doubt you'll take the time to look at it, but essentially it alludes to the powers beyond modern medicine for healing (and it was written by a doctor, not a "quack" if that helps)

Oh, and I just mentioned "ghost stories" because you did... ghosts, though connected to the topic, are kind of in a different little box, in my opinion, than what we are talking about.

Other than that, i don't really disagree with anything you said toretorden... Perhaps I am simply more willing to consciously amongst the parodoxical realities that I see than your average bear.

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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."