Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

Neapolitan · 04-25-2010, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan

I believe that we've made them illegal. And we can change that.

They are criminals in name only.

Look at our prison system. It's full of people who are there because they partook of a substance that's naturally occurring on planet Earth and arguably has little health side effects. They are there because they made a personal decision that effected nobody but themselves. That, to me, is unjust.

If we turn people away who dare seek for themselves a better life then one of living in violence or poverty, that to me is unjust.

The law shouldn't be absolute. It can and should change. I believe the majority of these people are in the moral right, and we've got to adjust to that.

How can it be just if it you allow illegal immigrants ignore US immigration laws while enforcing them for those how seek US citizenship legally. We didn't make them illegal, it was thier own actions that violate immigration laws.

There are two groups of people coming into the country illegal. Those who seek employment/work and those who are involved in illegal activities. The fomer should be compared whether or not their actions are "moral" to those who do take trouble to go about it legally and get rejected. It's immoral because they slip through the fence while others get turned away or are rejected because of quotas.

Don't you see the position they put themselves in by being an illegal alien. They do more harm to themselves being an illegal alien when they put themselves in a position of be coerced (usually at the hands of their employers or gangs) because of thier status; and inevitably suffer more abuse than otherwise because of it. And that exposes them to the same violence you say there are trying to escape. Immigration laws are enforced not only to protect society but the individual as well.

Imo this law was created to deal with that second group illegal aliens those who engage in criminal activities. Drug and gun smuggling, kidnapping, How does one deal with repeat offenders, gangs etc.? Let them goes through a revolving door.

Something is wrong isn't wrong because people say it's wrong, and all it takes to make it better is to change one's opinion of it, it's wrong when it hurts a person, or society. Something is wrong when it creates an injustice, and whether or not it is illegal does not depend whether or no you can comprehend what ramifications of an illegal action are. Appealing only to the emotional side of the arguement is not the criteria of morality.

IamAlejo · 04-27-2010, 09:14 AM

"To give the police greater power than a magistrate is to take a long step down the totalitarian path. Perhaps such a step is desirable to cope with modern forms of lawlessness. But if it is taken, it should be the deliberate choice of the people through a constitutional amendment." Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 38 (1968) (Douglas, J., dissenting).

(ftr, if you still don't get it, I think this bill is trash)

duga · 04-27-2010, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

"To give the police greater power than a magistrate is to take a long step down the totalitarian path. Perhaps such a step is desirable to cope with modern forms of lawlessness. But if it is taken, it should be the deliberate choice of the people through a constitutional amendment." Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 38 (1968) (Douglas, J., dissenting).

(ftr, if you still don't get it, I think this bill is trash)

Agreed.

IamAlejo · 04-27-2010, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan

We do pride ourselves on providing equal opportunities and freedom to everyone.

Supposedly.

We pride ourselves on providing those things for our citizens. Yes, you are correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan

If we turn people away who dare seek for themselves a better life then one of living in violence or poverty, that to me is unjust.

The law shouldn't be absolute. It can and should change. I believe the majority of these people are in the moral right, and we've got to adjust to that.

I thought this whole post was laughable, but this part particularly. So if a poor person goes and kills Donald Trump, that is unjust? I mean, he's simply breaking the law so that he can seek a better life than the one they had.

~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ · 04-27-2010, 01:10 PM

For God's sake, thats so far off from my original post I don't even know how to respond to it.

EDIT: Of course taking the life of another human being for one's own personal gain can't be justified. But these people who are entering our country illegally are doing so with honest intentions and inadvertently causing problems for the legal citizens of the United States. These problems could be avoided if we changed our laws to make entering this country illegally less appealing, and becoming a citizen easier for those who live in poverty. That's not to say we should just let anybody in. I wouldn't know how to fix it, but It's pretty easy to tell it needs to be fixed.

Neapolitan · 04-27-2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

"To give the police greater power than a magistrate is to take a long step down the totalitarian path. Perhaps such a step is desirable to cope with modern forms of lawlessness. But if it is taken, it should be the deliberate choice of the people through a constitutional amendment." Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 38 (1968) (Douglas, J., dissenting).

(ftr, if you still don't get it, I think this bill is trash)

Why is it trash?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FACT SHEET FOR S.B. 1070

Purpose

Requires officials and agencies of the state and political subdivisions to fully comply with and assist in the enforcement of federal immigration laws and gives county attorneys subpoena power in certain investigations of employers. Establishes crimes involving trespassing by illegal aliens, stopping to hire or soliciting work under specified circumstances, and transporting, harboring or concealing unlawful aliens, and their respective penalties.

imo I don't see it as giving police more power than a magistrate. What part of the bill does it explicitly state that police will be granted more power than a magistrate?

IamAlejo · 04-28-2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

Why is it trash?

If the mere existence, or (in this case) a lack thereof is itself a crime (which is what this bill does), why is forcing someone to hand over their identification not a violation of the 5th amendment to not self-incriminate?

All laws like this do is guarantee a violation of civil liberties.

boo boo · 04-28-2010, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateralus

Noooooooo.

We must save the burritos. Goddammit America.

IamAlejo · 04-28-2010, 10:43 AM

I loved this picture too. Apparently it's a crime to do something illegal these days.

(and yes, when looking specifically at the law, the caption is technically correct, it's still laughable)

boo boo · 04-28-2010, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungalow

and crash_override is just crazy. if you want to cut down on illegal immigration, crack down on huge, american multinational corporations that employ (and actively pursue) illegal mexican workers, who will work for low wages and in poor conditions, so those companies can continue to cheaply provide you the things which make your life convenient. these companies get a pass and instead the police arrest, jail and deport individual workers who are being exploited, and the companies turn around and hire another batch. not to mention the fact that going around and forcing people to produce papers or risk arrest is unconstitutional and gestapo-like. you can't justify possibly violating a lawful citizen's constitutional rights in the name of deporting illegals. there are just too many reasons why your mind is warped on this issue...

I agree with this 100%

These corporations have very little accountability on this issue and various other things. Perhaps if the neo cons tackled this instead of big guvment and immigrants, they would be taken more seriously.

But that's never gonna happen.

04-27-2010, 09:14 AM	#42 (permalink)
IamAlejo Muck Fusic Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 1,575	"To give the police greater power than a magistrate is to take a long step down the totalitarian path. Perhaps such a step is desirable to cope with modern forms of lawlessness. But if it is taken, it should be the deliberate choice of the people through a constitutional amendment." Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 38 (1968) (Douglas, J., dissenting). (ftr, if you still don't get it, I think this bill is trash) __________________ a man, a plan, a canal, panama

04-27-2010, 01:10 PM	#45 (permalink)
~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,538	For God's sake, thats so far off from my original post I don't even know how to respond to it. EDIT: Of course taking the life of another human being for one's own personal gain can't be justified. But these people who are entering our country illegally are doing so with honest intentions and inadvertently causing problems for the legal citizens of the United States. These problems could be avoided if we changed our laws to make entering this country illegally less appealing, and becoming a citizen easier for those who live in poverty. That's not to say we should just let anybody in. I wouldn't know how to fix it, but It's pretty easy to tell it needs to be fixed. Last edited by someonecompletelyrandom; 04-27-2010 at 01:20 PM.

04-28-2010, 10:43 AM	#49 (permalink)
IamAlejo Muck Fusic Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 1,575	I loved this picture too. Apparently it's a crime to do something illegal these days. (and yes, when looking specifically at the law, the caption is technically correct, it's still laughable) __________________ a man, a plan, a canal, panama