Consolator

That is society's problem, not the parent's.

s_k

Haha, if it were that easy there wouldn't be a problem, would there?
I agree with you completely, but it's not really a choice, is it?
We have to adapter to society. Even if we can't or don't want to.
I can't and lots of times don't want to .

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Consolator

So as a society, we cannot work to get rid of inconsistencies, double standards, and misinformed assumptions about various minorities?

Arya Stark

Obviously not right now. I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing, s_k is bringing up a fairly valid point.
Although not ALL kids raised by two same-sex parents end up gay or whatever it is, kids who DO must deal with society now. Whether or not we CAN change isn't the point, it's the fact that we have yet to change and anyone born into society must deal with it or suffer the consequences they bring upon themselves.

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Consolator

I think we're on different pages..

I got the impression from s_k's post that because male children have the possibility of being feminine as a reason to be against same-sex couples raising children.

I'm not fond of the mindset of "Oh well, we can't do anything about it" when it comes to social issues. If everyone just sat back and allowed people's prejudices to run rampant, we would not have made the social progress we've made today. I guess I just hate stagnation.

I really dislike the last part of your post. So, because someone is born gay, feminine, or whatever, you believe that that is a consequence that is brought upon by themselves?

s_k

All I want to say is that kids do, for a fact, lean more to their father or mother in different periods of their childhood and I wonder if same-sex parents are affecting that principle in any way.
I think kids with two dads or two moms will definately act 'different' in their lives. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to me, personally. Because I don't mind people acting 'different'. I like people acting 'different'. I'm just worried about the way society is going to react to it.
And to make myself completely clear: I don't agree with society at all, I don't like 'society'.
But it's just a fact that people who differ from a certain average in any shape or form tend to have a hard time on this planet. I should know, I am pretty different myself .

And I think that AwwSugar is trying to say the same thing. I really can't find anything in her reply that says that gay people have a choice to become gay.
I know there's people who think that way, who think you can 'become' straight, or that being gay is a punishment from some sort of God. But I try to avoid people who think like that.

I think we should, but I think the majority won't.
I myself try to be as open minded as possible in any way and I expect my friends to do the same. If anyone here shows any form of racism, he or she gets kicked out of the house, literally .

I just read the posting by awwsugar again and I now see wat probably shocked Consolator.

She says: "Although not ALL kids raised by two same-sex parents end up gay or whatever it is, kids who DO must deal with society now."

Sounds a bit like she says that some kids raised by same-sex parents end up gay.
I indeed don't agree with that at all. I don't think you can raise a kid to be gay, I don't think being gay is inheritable. I think you can't have any influence on that in any way.
What I meant is that some (lots of) kids with same-sex parents tend go end up 'different'. And being 'different' in this world, often means running into problems with society.

But I don't think we interpret AwwSugar's post the way we should

I agree with you on this one. I think you and I can do something, in our lives, and maybe have a little bit of influence on the entire world. But it's not like the world is going to change in a couple of days. So although I do what I can do, I have come to accept that the world isn't going to adapt to me or to any other person who differs from the average. I do, my friends do, but the world doesn't, yet.

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Guybrush

I guess what you meant is sort of the opposite, that you don't really turn gay because of your social environment Homosexuality does have a genetic basis (as well as an evironmental one of course) and is inheritable. On that basis, one could compare some discrimination of homosexuals to racism, as you do. However, I think some people also have a problem with the way the homosexuals are portrayed in the media, their culture and stereotypes. For example they walk and talk a certain way and like musicals. One discrimination is based on fascism and the other is often based on ignorance or gross generalizations.

Some people also think that gay people are evolutionary dead ends and that this somehow decreases their worth as human beings. The fact is that if the genetic component behind homosexuality does not have any kind of fitness benefit behind it, explaining why it's here at all becomes quite tricky based on what we think we know about modern biology today. The most likely assumption is that there are associated fitness benefits, but that they are not immediately appearant.

edit :

By the way, I merged your quadruple-post. Instead of making several posts quoting several people, learn how to multi-quote instead -> http://www.musicbanter.com/introduct...tml#post653469

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s_k

I never knew homosexuality was inheritable. I just did a little research and it turns out American studies are telling it is, but in the Netherlands, they're not sure yet.
I can't say anything sensible about it, I just wouldn't know.
I never had the idea it was inheritable.
Eitherway, I'm sure it can't be triggered by your environment. You are born gay, or you're not born gay. It's that simple.

About the way gays are portrayed in the media: Gays are pretty accepted in the Netherlands. They're not portrayed as something bad, overhere.
Some gays are indeed extremely well... gayish. And I must admit I can find that quite annoying. But it's not like you have to be gay to be annoying . So that's no reason to discriminate.

And then, about gays being a dead end: I don't even think of that as a bad thing. We really have enough people. I won't have any children. Mainly because I have autism and that's very, very inheritable. But also because I don't think the world's all that brilliant, so I don't see a reason for wanting even more people to live here. And then there's the simple fact that I think there's enough people on this earth by now. Why add more?
I'm sure that most mothers have a completely different view on this subject .

I know how to multi quote, I just thought of something different to say every time and got a bit lazy .

I'm now going to quit this discussion. I really note that my English is to restricted to explain what I really want to say.

Very short: I have no problems with gay people, I have no problems with gay marriages, I'm not sure about gay parenting .

Please continue your discussion, ladies and gentlemen.
I'll return after my English has become a little less crooked.
Shouldn't take long. I know it gets better really quick when I speak English a lot.

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Guybrush

I think this is right, in a way. I wrote that there are environmental components to homosexuality, but as far as I know, they mostly have to do with the environment inside the uterus during pregnancy. I believe that when a person is born, future sexual preferences regarding gender are already pretty much determined.

For a quick look at some really interesting information about homosexuality and it's biological basis and heritability, check out this segment from 60 minutes







Those who haven't seen it .. really, you should!

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Arya Stark

Lol, that's actually not what I meant, but I guess I can see where you got that. I said the way someone acts in today's society, or at least the society I grew up in, is of their own doing. Where I grew up, it was really uncool to be gay, uncool to be "emo", and uncool to be in band. I did all of them. I remember it being talked about ALL over the school when I would hold the hand of a girl I was with in high school. I also remember it being talked about that I was a little emo kid and that all I did was marching band. I grew up in a small town where everyone knew what everyone is doing, so maybe I'm a little bit frustrated, but I've learned that if I had held my sexuality and my style, and what I liked to do IN, then I wouldn't have had to deal with the consequences- the constant being made fun of and ridicule that I had to deal with everyday from my classmates. I did not say it would have been GOOD, I'm not stating an opinion, I'm stating a fact, I wouldn't have had to endure the ridicule, and I have a feeling once again I'm not wording this correctly, but I'm sure if you had a better idea of what I was saying, that you would agree with me. I know that society is capable of changing, but it hasn't. So people living in it either have to go with what's acceptable in society and not be happy, or go with what's unnacceptable, and what would normally make them happy... but then they would have to deal with the way they were treated by a majority of people. Everyone has had to deal with these types of pressures to a certain degree, try doing it gay and tell me what happens. If you're gay, great, then I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from. If not, I'm sure you have an example of a time you had to decide between conforming and not conforming.

Regarding conformation, I know a straight girl who told me all her life she conformed to be cool, and that she was happy doing it. So maybe it is possible, but it was something she wanted. She WANTED to be mean, she WANTED to look hot and to drink and do sneak out at night and to have the friends that were popular, maybe it's what she wanted to do and that's why she conformed,.. I don't know, now I'm just babbling.

I have so much to say about this, I don't even know where to start. First of all, I think the whole example they used about the way gay/straight people talk and move is a horrible example. I don't believe gay people begin moving differently, I think it's a learned thing. Same with straight people. If straight guys see other straight guys moving a certain way, and believe that's the way they should be moving, then they will move that way as well. Also, the whole example with the children growing up to be gay or straight and it being proved was bull**** in my opinion. I think if anything, those videos proved that children are taught to be gay or straight, and I don't believe that. That little girl pushing the truck and all dressed in black most likely didn't dress herself, so it's not HER who decided to look and act like she was going to be gay when she grew up. Is it just me?
The segment about the rats and the older brothers was extremely interesting to me. At first I thought they were saying that it was environment of having older brothers that caused the men to be gay, but now I realize they meant in the womb, which was extremely interesting.

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