Animal Cruelty

Arya Stark · 12-17-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noise

an appeal to the nastiness of animal cruelty is a terrible excuse to be a vegetarian. i don't think any living thing that dies in the jaws and claws of a predator experiences a particularly pleasant death.

i understand that kids bashing cats with bats is an intentional act of malice, and is therefore very different than a chimp knocking a monkey out of a tree with its fist then picking its broken body off of the forest floor and eating it alive. but that's my very point. animals eat other animals, and there's really no polite way to do it...

Your argument doesn't even make sense.
So when a vegetarian becomes one because of morals, it's bad because no animal dies a good death? The whole point is not to eat the animal at all. So that I know that I don't have to deal with the feeling of guilt for eating something that went through suffering or pain.
Of course there's no polite way to do it, that's why vegetarians don't eat animals at all.

noise · 12-17-2010, 10:12 AM

i was trying to highlight the distinction between killing for food and killing for fun, and to suggest that killing for food does not count as "animal cruelty" since there is no malice involved.

perhaps i was wrong in assuming that nobody could possibly consider the act of killing for food to be "cruel" or "immoral". but if you ask me, it's not our place to judge all the trillions upon trillions of carnivores that have ever existed.

Zaqarbal · 12-17-2010, 10:50 AM

Arya Stark · 12-17-2010, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noise

i was trying to highlight the distinction between killing for food and killing for fun, and to suggest that killing for food does not count as "animal cruelty" since there is no malice involved.

perhaps i was wrong in assuming that nobody could possibly consider the act of killing for food to be "cruel" or "immoral". but if you ask me, it's not our place to judge all the trillions upon trillions of carnivores that have ever existed.

Sometimes it's not even ABOUT the killing, it's about the way the animals were treated beforehand. Have you never seen the videos of chickens in houses with no windows, genetically created to be TOO BIG for their legs to handle, so they can't even walk? Have you never seen those videos?
Killing is such a small fraction of the animal cruelty that occurs, you obviously don't understand.

VEGANGELICA · 12-17-2010, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

There are some differences between rabbits and lynxes and you could say in those differences lie the rational basis for treating them differently. F.ex, the lynx is a threatened species, the rabbit is not and number in the millions. The rabbit is causing ecological problems and may be a competitor with us for resources (nibble in your vegetable garden) while the lynx is generally not.

So, killing lynxes hardly seems rational. They're not around to bother us and there are few of them. However, rabbits are often considered a pest and so they get killed. Is that really so irrational?

All your reasons for accepting the killing of rabbits, Tore, seem also to be the perfect rationale for killing people. We are not a threatened species, we number 6.5 BILLION (!), we cause ecological problems, and we compete with each other for resources!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaqarbal

There are also certain logical inconsistencies in our attitude towards the animals.

Perhaps we must conclude that we humans aren't 100% rational beings.

Yes and yes, Zaqarbal. I agree. And I'm flattered you quoted my long post! Thank you for reading it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AwwSugar

Your argument doesn't even make sense.
So when a vegetarian becomes one because of morals, it's bad because no animal dies a good death? The whole point is not to eat the animal at all. So that I know that I don't have to deal with the feeling of guilt for eating something that went through suffering or pain.
Of course there's no polite way to do it, that's why vegetarians don't eat animals at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AwwSugar

Sometimes it's not even ABOUT the killing, it's about the way the animals were treated beforehand. Have you never seen the videos of chickens in houses with no windows, genetically created to be TOO BIG for their legs to handle, so they can't even walk? Have you never seen those videos?

Killing is such a small fraction of the animal cruelty that occurs, you obviously don't understand.

Amandria, I am cheered to see you defending our views!

I haven't been feeling much like being a champion of vegetarianism recently (don't worry...I'll be back!!), so it is nice to take a break and see that you are putting forward some of the arguments for vegetarianism. I appreciate this especially since I know you've said you prefer not to argue and would rather just keep to yourself, following your own conscience rather than trying to change other people's.

noise · 12-17-2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AwwSugar

Sometimes it's not even ABOUT the killing, it's about the way the animals were treated beforehand. Have you never seen the videos of chickens in houses with no windows, genetically created to be TOO BIG for their legs to handle, so they can't even walk? Have you never seen those videos?
Killing is such a small fraction of the animal cruelty that occurs, you obviously don't understand.

i have seen the videos, and i do understand. i simply don't care. i like to keep my world small. i have my own little local problems, and i don't want to spend time worrying about everyone else's.

don't get me wrong, i went through a vegetarian phase too. 7 years of abstinence, including 1 year of full-on veganism. but i got over myself.

it's all about perspective. just imagine trying to be a whiny vegetarian in medieval france (fetchez la vache!), or having the audacity to decline a morsel of warm, bloody liver from a just-killed auroch in paleolithic portugal. it just wouldn't happen. people gotta eat, and for much of human history, meat has been on the menu.

yes, we have other options today. yes, you can survive without eating flesh. but do you honestly think that your actions make a difference? nobody will remember your stout heart and your bully-for-the-beasts attitude. a thousand years from now, every living thing on this planet will be dead and forgotten, and the universe will move right along in its unflinching quest towards chaos. such is our fate. best embrace it.

Paedantic Basterd · 12-17-2010, 12:48 PM

I think it's awfully lame to discourage vegetarianism in others who are willing to make the commitment.

I'm the kind of hypocrite who sits on the fence on the matter and says "I'd make the change if I knew it would make a difference", and also acknowledges that it takes those individual sacrifices, knowingly made without gain, to make the big impact in the end.

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 12-17-2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noise

don't get me wrong, i went through a vegetarian phase too. 7 years of abstinence, including 1 year of full-on veganism. but i got over myself.

What is this supposed to mean? As if choosing not to eat meat is some kind of teenage phase like wearing a mohawk or sticking pins in your face?

noise · 12-17-2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

I think it's awfully lame to discourage vegetarianism in others who are willing to make the commitment.

a commitment to what, personal sacrifice? the well-being of god's children? chicken rights?

i've never known a vegetarian who wasn't evangelical about their diet. their DIET mind you. not their beliefs about the meaning of life and death, or the right of a woman to abort her own blastula, or even the banality of stem cell research. no, they have issue with the origin of my lunch.

my cousin was visiting me about this time last year. she was going on about the poor chicks and piglets, telling me how they suffer so. i asked her about the working conditions in the factory that produced her designer clothes. she pleaded ignorance.

we choose our own battles. some people joust for tofu. i wrangle for hedonism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Tolstoy

You are an accidentally united little lump of something. That little lump ferments. The little lump calls that fermenting its 'life'. The lump will disintegrate and there will be an end of the fermenting and of all the questions.

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 12-17-2010, 01:26 PM

Don't hold ******* vegetarians against the rest of us, I don't give a **** what you eat

12-17-2010, 10:12 AM	#72 (permalink)
noise thirsty ears Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Boulder Posts: 742	i was trying to highlight the distinction between killing for food and killing for fun, and to suggest that killing for food does not count as "animal cruelty" since there is no malice involved. perhaps i was wrong in assuming that nobody could possibly consider the act of killing for food to be "cruel" or "immoral". but if you ask me, it's not our place to judge all the trillions upon trillions of carnivores that have ever existed. __________________ my flac collection

12-17-2010, 10:50 AM	#73 (permalink)
Zaqarbal Music Addict Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Spain Posts: 824	__________________ "Lullabies for adults / crossed by the years / carry the flower of disappointment / tattooed in their gloomy melodies."

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12-17-2010, 12:48 PM	#77 (permalink)
Paedantic Basterd Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5,184	I think it's awfully lame to discourage vegetarianism in others who are willing to make the commitment. I'm the kind of hypocrite who sits on the fence on the matter and says "I'd make the change if I knew it would make a difference", and also acknowledges that it takes those individual sacrifices, knowingly made without gain, to make the big impact in the end.

12-17-2010, 01:26 PM	#80 (permalink)
~~Sansa Stark~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: The Eyrie, Vale of Arryn, Westeros Posts: 3,234	Don't hold ***** vegetarians against the rest of us, I don't give a ** what you eat