Urban Hat€monger ?

I think the people who think that these people should just leave the country should read up on some history.

A lot of France's empire from Africa to the far east was based in what is now Muslim countries. Muslims have been a regular fixture in French culture for nearly 200 years.
They have every right to be there.
I'm actually shocked that so many people think that them leaving the country is such an easy solution to this.
That's no different to suggesting to a white Australian to go back to Britain if they don't like something or a black person to go back to Africa or the Caribbean.

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TheBig3

Sure, but there isn't anything that says the French government has to accommodate them. I have no stake in this battle, but the French have a right to be obnoxious ****s. If I were a French citizen I might be a vocal opponent of this; I wouldn't stand for something like this here.

The zeitgeist in Paris is that France is a secular nation who wants to affirm that, and they are of the belief that head scarves is not secular enough. As I said, if a large majority of Europeans suddenly moves to any country governed by Sharia, no one would expect those countries to adjust to a Western style governance.

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Mr November

I'm against burkas and for questioning all culture and religion. I think banning burkas makes sense, and I think it's unfortunate that people think the French government would do this out of a lack of respect for human rights.

I seriously find it hilarious that people are so politically correct about religion and culture, that they are willing to embrace these kind of "practices" even in modern western society. People are allowed to take swords to school, or cover their entire bodies? Where I'm from you aren't allowed to wear a hood in a public school - someone call the UN and start a protest...

Culture is not some perfect unquestionable ultimately valuable thing. Sure - it's important, but always ask why. This burka thing is so important that these woman couldn't possibly go out without it? That's mentally twisted and wrong. <- period.

People will spend their whole lives abiding by arbitrary cultural practices and beliefs for right or for wrong. If we want the whole world to move forward we need to stop allowing people who live in the past to dictate our future.

Don't point fingers at the french, focus on the real problem.

djchameleon

I think you are missing the point that Burkas are related to the religion itself and if these women are practicing the religion then they will follow what their holy text says regardless of what you make thing of the religious custom

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Fame, fortune, power, titties. People say these are the most crucial things in life, but you can have a pocket full o' gold and it doesn't mean sh*t if you don't have someone to share that gold with. Seems simple. Yet it's an important lesson to learn. Even lone wolves run in packs sometimes.

Paedantic Basterd

Yeah, I think you're missing the mark a bit, Ian. It's not a fashion statement, it's religious doctrine. You wouldn't ask someone of Hindu religion to eat a hamburger, would you?

Mr November

I wouldn't ask a HINDU vegetarian to eat a hamburger (Indians can be many different religions, and not all of them are against the consumption of meat/ nor do they all worship cows). This is because I don't believe that vegetarianism / not eating beef is a burden to society. If they believed that I shouldn't be allowed to eat a hamburger, or that anyone else shouldn't be allowed to eat a hamburger - I wouldn't give a f*ck about their stupid beliefs. Yet if they had a reason other than religion to say that I shouldn't eat meat, I would consider it very seriously.

Burkas are an issue because they represent everything western society has spent the last 100 years fighting against. If it was a fashion statement I wouldn't be so harsh on it - but it's not. I don't respect religious doctrine. I don't care about it, I don't want to hear it used as a defence for any behaviour, and I don't accept it as unquestionable or untouchable.

If their religion asks them to do things that compramise societies ability to ensure safety for people, and to ensure a healthy society, then they can't practice their religion. And I don't care about that. I don't care if they can't practice their religion - they can either quit, go somewhere that they can, or be arrested.

I don't expect people to agree with me. I'm just saying what I believe - and I quite expect this will offend people - yet, I don't care.

Paedantic Basterd

Yes, you'll see I noted that and edited my post. The word was a placeholder while I looked up the appropriate singular word for a person of Hindu religion, because "A hindu" sounded grammatically incorrect. Apologies.

EDIT: As for the burka, I think you have misguided notions of its purpose and symbolism.

Mr November

Fair enough about the Hindu thing.

To me the purpose is clarified by the level of adherence. You can play with the intent and try to make it out to be some sort of twisted empowerment or something - but face the facts - it's just not socially healthy. It only serves to segregate sexes, and to violate a persons right to their own identity.

If they do it out of religious belief, it isn't a personal choice - because it is inspired through something involuntary. True belief is never voluntary. And if they don't believe in the religious value of not being seen in public, than its a product of pressures from a cultural society - which is also just wrong.

Paedantic Basterd

But who are you to decide what is healthy for a person and what is not? I would argue that it is unhealthy for teenage girls to be wearing short skirts and low cut tops; certainly more degrading than women wearing burkas.

Mr November

I'm not deciding what is healthy and what is not. Although burkas can be shown to cause many health risks such as rickets and vitamin D deficiency. And I guess the question is, who is making this decision? Because there are countries where it is illegal not to wear a burka. And the problem is, these women aren't making a choice. They will not and therefore cannot go out in public without a burka? And this is for a religious reason - so it's not at all on the same level as as someone who has been unfortunate enough to believe that they need to be a sexual object and who may reflect this in the way they dress. And you can actually debate whether skimpy clothing is degrading - I find it hard to debate whether burkas are.

Western society does push a lot of negative ideas against women. And this does produce its own kind of sexual segregation. But it's different because burkas come from a world where women's enfranchisement, identity, and humanity are being challenged. Provocative clothing come from a world that I really don't understand to be honest - but I don't think it's intended to remove women's human rights...

I mean are you seeing the distinction that I think I am?