Can God Give Free Will?

Freebase Dali · 06-01-2011, 03:10 PM

That brings up a good point...
If god has a plan for everyone, and everyone's life is predestined to turn out a certain way, then, considering the fact that some folks will turn out to be horrible people, then was that god's plan? And if so, doesn't that make god an asshole?

Is it destiny when people carry out horrible acts of violence and sick, twisted shit?
Or did Hitler just stray from god's path by choosing free will?

What about people that are mentally incompetent or ill, and are violent psychopaths with no touch in reality and go on rampages? Are they choosing free will? Or is it destiny? Certainly, some folks are not even legally accountable for their actions.

Finally, natural disasters, diseases, etc... people dying when they may have been good, or bad, or innocent kids... what path were they on? What choices did they make? I'd like to think that if there was a god, he wouldn't use human beings as pawns, but I'm a little stuck on the math...

Mr November · 06-01-2011, 08:06 PM

I think the idea is that destiny is a purpose that God would have for you. A role that He wants you to fulfil and that He's supposed to give you the tools to succeed in. So yes, Hitler would have strayed from the path. I'm not sure what the Catholic Church's position on people who don't belong to Catholic Church is either. It used to be that you would go to Hell if you weren't Catholic, then it was that you your soul would just be obliterated, and some even say you would still get to go to heaven if you were a good person.

And what if you were never told about the Bible or anything? Well then I think you're supposed to not be accountable and you would just be obliterated (your soul that is).

I don't think the Catholic church has Limbo anymore (this is where they used to say that children who died in birth went for example). But I think they decided to get rid of that (much to the pain of mothers who had believed for decades that this was where their child had gone).

The Bible wasn't written at a time when mental illness for example was understood. It was often misunderstood that the person was under the possession of the devil or something. Back then they would have said the person was responsible and accountable for their actions (and so the circumstances of the rest of their eternity would be dictated by them).

Now I'm not sure what the newest beliefs are. I doubt it's the same... normally you get a none answer like that only God can make that judgment. I also find that most of my Catholic family don't actually know what the Catholic church's stance is on these things...

~~The Virgin~~ · 06-02-2011, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oojay

I guess what I was getting at is that free will can't be given. Once it is given, it is no longer free will because it is forced upon us.

red is a primary color. but if you mix it with blue it becomes purple; with green it becomes brown; with yellow it becomes red; etc.
same as with free will, it's given by God pure and clean. it's up to has what things we want to mix it with to produce an outcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

@ The Virgin
I don't believe in God, so a lot of what you've said doesn't really make sense to me. I was raised Catholic so it's not the first time I'm hearing any of what you're saying.

i know you believe in God. The fact that you capitalized the letter G when mentioning Him is proof enough. Don't worry, even the faintest belief from His children makes HIM smile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

I just find that the majority, if not all, of these responses ignore the question rather than address it.

of course, most members here rather goof off and talk about sex and stuff than God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

On an off topic: The Virgin, do you believe God will accept you into his heart as a gay person?
Disclaimer: I fully support gay people and am always torn about whether its allowed by God or not. Personally I think it has to be, it seems to me people are born with it, little children show signs of being gay even! God created us to be imperfect.

As I've previously mentioned, God loves ALL OF US. No matter, who or what or where we are, no matter what we do in life, no matter what. When we all die, each one of us will have that heavenly oppurtunity to meet Him. And as you approach Him, He'll smile at you and simply say "I Know My Child, I Know".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

I think the idea is that destiny is a purpose that God would have for you. A role that He wants you to fulfil and that He's supposed to give you the tools to succeed in. So yes, Hitler would have strayed from the path. I'm not sure what the Catholic Church's position on people who don't belong to Catholic Church is either. It used to be that you would go to Hell if you weren't Catholic, then it was that you your soul would just be obliterated, and some even say you would still get to go to heaven if you were a good person.

And what if you were never told about the Bible or anything? Well then I think you're supposed to not be accountable and you would just be obliterated (your soul that is).

I don't think the Catholic church has Limbo anymore (this is where they used to say that children who died in birth went for example). But I think they decided to get rid of that (much to the pain of mothers who had believed for decades that this was where their child had gone).

The Bible wasn't written at a time when mental illness for example was understood. It was often misunderstood that the person was under the possession of the devil or something. Back then they would have said the person was responsible and accountable for their actions (and so the circumstances of the rest of their eternity would be dictated by them).

Now I'm not sure what the newest beliefs are. I doubt it's the same... normally you get a none answer like that only God can make that judgment. I also find that most of my Catholic family don't actually know what the Catholic church's stance is on these things...

out of all the posters in this thread, you're the sanest.

djchameleon · 06-02-2011, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oojay

If he died to save us all from Hell, then why do our actions matter? How can our bad behavior send us to Hell if he already died to save us?

our actions truly don't matter. Look it up in the bible and it will tell you this indirectly. the only way our bad behavior will send us to Hell is if we die and decide to not acknowledge Him and repent for our sins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

If god uses WEP, then he's a moron, and his shit will get hacked in a matter of minutes. It's all about WPA2 + TKIP. Praise the lord.

lol I was going to make a similar comment but you beat me to the punch. A perfect being would upgrade his **** to the most secure. WEP is so easy to get into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

Sort of on topic: I'm no theologist, but if you commit a crime such as murder and hate crimes, and do not have God in your heart there is no way you will get into Heaven or be cleansed etc. I'm not entirely sure about reformed murderers etc, but the consensus is that God will look back on an individuals life, weigh up how they behaved, treated others and whether they had any love in their hearts and determine if they deserve an all access pass to heaven or not.

This is a common misconception. Some people believe that God will look over your life and see whether you were inherently a good person or bad one past off of your past decisions but that's not true at all.

When he died on the cross for our sins, all we have to do is repent and believe that he is real and voila up to heaven you go.

That's why I said earlier that you can be the most wicked person but if you repent for your sins and acknowledge him as your lord and savoir then you are technically "saved". You won't go to hell when you die within mins. Probably one of the main reasons that people pray and do this while on deathrow. Mainly because they are scared of the afterlife and they rather do this and get to heaven than to just keep believing that their body is just going to rot in the ground.

Wait. I think they burn inmates bodies that would be most cost effective

**Scarlett O'Hara** · 06-02-2011, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

our actions truly don't matter. Look it up in the bible and it will tell you this indirectly. the only way our bad behavior will send us to Hell is if we die and decide to not acknowledge Him and repent for our sins.

lol I was going to make a similar comment but you beat me to the punch. A perfect being would upgrade his **** to the most secure. WEP is so easy to get into.

This is a common misconception. Some people believe that God will look over your life and see whether you were inherently a good person or bad one past off of your past decisions but that's not true at all.

When he died on the cross for our sins, all we have to do is repent and believe that he is real and voila up to heaven you go.

That's why I said earlier that you can be the most wicked person but if you repent for your sins and acknowledge him as your lord and savoir then you are technically "saved". You won't go to hell when you die within mins. Probably one of the main reasons that people pray and do this while on deathrow. Mainly because they are scared of the afterlife and they rather do this and get to heaven than to just keep believing that their body is just going to rot in the ground.

Wait. I think they burn inmates bodies that would be most cost effective

How can you say it's a misconception when you haven't died, faced God himself and gone through the process?

There's no way in hell (parden the pun), God will just let someone into Heaven who have been wicked and evil (following the ways of the Devil) because they randomly repented at the end. It's down to whether they have actually accepted God and are honestly wanting to change. Even then who knows. No one does, it's down to God.

djchameleon · 06-02-2011, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

How can you say it's a misconception when you haven't died, faced God himself and gone through the process?

There's no way in hell (parden the pun), God will just let someone into Heaven who have been wicked and evil (following the ways of the Devil) because they randomly repented at the end. It's down to whether they have actually accepted God and are honestly wanting to change. Even then who knows. No one does, it's down to God.

I'm just telling you what the Bible states.

I can ask you the same question

How can you say what you are saying when you haven't died, faced God himself and gone through the process?

**Scarlett O'Hara** · 06-02-2011, 04:38 AM

I don't know for sure, I don't claim to.

~~The Virgin~~ · 06-02-2011, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

How can you say what you are saying when you haven't died, faced God himself and gone through the process?

best suggestion i've read since i joined here.

~~[MERIT]~~ · 06-02-2011, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

I fully support gay people and am always torn about whether its allowed by God or not. Personally I think it has to be, it seems to me people are born with it, little children show signs of being gay even! God created us to be imperfect.

The bible says nothing about homosexuality. It is equated to masturbation and sex with a woman on her period. It is deemed useless as sperm (or the possibility of life from said sperm) is lost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

I'm no theologist, but if you commit a crime such as murder and hate crimes, and do not have God in your heart there is no way you will get into Heaven or be cleansed etc. I'm not entirely sure about reformed murderers etc, but the consensus is that God will look back on an individuals life, weigh up how they behaved, treated others and whether they had any love in their hearts and determine if they deserve an all access pass to heaven or not.

According to the bible, if the murderer repents on his death bed then he will be saved and go to heaven. But on the inverse, if a righteous man does good deeds his entire life, but does not accept God into his heart (either via refusal, never being exposed to the religion, etc), he will burn in hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

You can argue that free-will is really predestined, but God knows all of us so well that he can pin point we will make certain decisions over others.

Not really. The idea of free will is the complete antitheses of the the Calvinistic version of predestination as most view it. I think you're hitting on what I said earlier. Is it really free will if God supposedly designed it and forced it upon us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virgin

red is a primary color. but if you mix it with blue it becomes purple; with green it becomes brown; with yellow it becomes red; etc.
same as with free will, it's given by God pure and clean. it's up to has what things we want to mix it with to produce an outcome.

That is a complete cop-out, and you're entirely missing my point. It is not free will if we had no choice in the matter, and God forced it upon us. It's really a secondary, more philisophical issue than the matter at hand. You can't force free will upon someone, beacuse once you do, it ceases to be FREE will, see what I'm saying?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virgin

As I've previously mentioned, God loves ALL OF US. No matter, who or what or where we are, no matter what we do in life, no matter what. When we all die, each one of us will have that heavenly oppurtunity to meet Him. And as you approach Him, He'll smile at you and simply say "I Know My Child, I Know".

This is just your belief. One amongst many others

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

How can you say it's a misconception when you haven't died, faced God himself and gone through the process?

It's no more far-fetched than any other religious belief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

There's no way in hell (parden the pun), God will just let someone into Heaven who have been wicked and evil (following the ways of the Devil) because they randomly repented at the end. It's down to whether they have actually accepted God and are honestly wanting to change. Even then who knows. No one does, it's down to God.

Actually, that is how it works. Honesty is relative. I'm sure that someone facing death honestly does not want to burn in hell, so who is to say that they don't mean it?

Mr November · 06-02-2011, 09:02 PM

Just a few notes.

I don't really remember now, but I'm pretty sure oj is right. The Bible doesn't mention homosexuality being wrong except for in a few cases, and it isn't any bigger a deal than some other minor stuff.

The Bible is kind of weird like that when you compare it to peoples perception of it. In fact, for example, the Bible doesn't condone marriage... it only says that if you're going to have sex (which you apparently shouldn't) it's not as bad if you are married...

And just a note about me capitalizing God. I do that because it's the name of the god of the Bible. God is specific; "god" would be just the concept without any specific religion attached as long as it was monotheistic. If there was more than one god it would of course be gods.

I capitalize the names of lots of things that I don't believe are real. Harry Potter, Gandalf, Zeus, Thor... it doesn't mean I have a belief in these things, I just have an on/off respect for the english language.

06-01-2011, 08:06 PM	#52 (permalink)
Mr November Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Halifax, Canada Posts: 429	I think the idea is that destiny is a purpose that God would have for you. A role that He wants you to fulfil and that He's supposed to give you the tools to succeed in. So yes, Hitler would have strayed from the path. I'm not sure what the Catholic Church's position on people who don't belong to Catholic Church is either. It used to be that you would go to Hell if you weren't Catholic, then it was that you your soul would just be obliterated, and some even say you would still get to go to heaven if you were a good person. And what if you were never told about the Bible or anything? Well then I think you're supposed to not be accountable and you would just be obliterated (your soul that is). I don't think the Catholic church has Limbo anymore (this is where they used to say that children who died in birth went for example). But I think they decided to get rid of that (much to the pain of mothers who had believed for decades that this was where their child had gone). The Bible wasn't written at a time when mental illness for example was understood. It was often misunderstood that the person was under the possession of the devil or something. Back then they would have said the person was responsible and accountable for their actions (and so the circumstances of the rest of their eternity would be dictated by them). Now I'm not sure what the newest beliefs are. I doubt it's the same... normally you get a none answer like that only God can make that judgment. I also find that most of my Catholic family don't actually know what the Catholic church's stance is on these things... Last edited by Mr November; 06-01-2011 at 08:15 PM.

06-02-2011, 04:38 AM	#57 (permalink)
Scarlett O'Hara Make it so Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 6,181	I don't know for sure, I don't claim to. __________________ "Elph is truly an enfant terrible of the forum, bless and curse him" - Marie, Queen of Thots

06-01-2011, 03:10 PM	#51 (permalink)
Freebase Dali Partying on the inside Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,584	That brings up a good point... If god has a plan for everyone, and everyone's life is predestined to turn out a certain way, then, considering the fact that some folks will turn out to be horrible people, then was that god's plan? And if so, doesn't that make god an asshole? Is it destiny when people carry out horrible acts of violence and sick, twisted shit? Or did Hitler just stray from god's path by choosing free will? What about people that are mentally incompetent or ill, and are violent psychopaths with no touch in reality and go on rampages? Are they choosing free will? Or is it destiny? Certainly, some folks are not even legally accountable for their actions. Finally, natural disasters, diseases, etc... people dying when they may have been good, or bad, or innocent kids... what path were they on? What choices did they make? I'd like to think that if there was a god, he wouldn't use human beings as pawns, but I'm a little stuck on the math...

06-02-2011, 09:02 PM	#60 (permalink)
Mr November Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Halifax, Canada Posts: 429	Just a few notes. I don't really remember now, but I'm pretty sure oj is right. The Bible doesn't mention homosexuality being wrong except for in a few cases, and it isn't any bigger a deal than some other minor stuff. The Bible is kind of weird like that when you compare it to peoples perception of it. In fact, for example, the Bible doesn't condone marriage... it only says that if you're going to have sex (which you apparently shouldn't) it's not as bad if you are married... And just a note about me capitalizing God. I do that because it's the name of the god of the Bible. God is specific; "god" would be just the concept without any specific religion attached as long as it was monotheistic. If there was more than one god it would of course be gods. I capitalize the names of lots of things that I don't believe are real. Harry Potter, Gandalf, Zeus, Thor... it doesn't mean I have a belief in these things, I just have an on/off respect for the english language.