Children killed in Connecticut school shooting (likely 27 dead,including 18 children)

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 12-26-2012, 02:41 PM

What point?

Neapolitan · 12-26-2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

I think what HHBH is trying to imply, is that the USA is made up of immigrants from literally everywhere and most of those would've come from the lower levels of society from the country where they came from, hence violence and risky behaviour wasn't anything new to them.

I thought hhbh was talking strictly personality traits. Those who had the gumption to get up and go to another country (in this case America) were risk takers and then they passed that risk-taking gene down to their discendants. I don't know if that is the case. I doubt if he could prove that is true since basically all humans descend from people who migrated at one time or another. And what the gunman did imo doesn't equate to "risk taking." Since a risk implies what choice is the better in the long run. I took it that hhbh was talking through his hat.

hip hop bunny hop · 12-26-2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorOldPo

Everyone is an immigrant from somewhere so.....I don't agree.

Try this out:

Quote:

The personality trait of novelty seeking (NS) has been associated with the long variant of the dopamine D4 receptor (L-DRD4) VNTR polymorphism.... ANOVAs showed that L-DRD4 individuals had higher NS, made more risky choices and won less money in the decision making task, but had intact planning for problem solving. They also had reduced startle reactivity and late startle modulation by both pleasant and unpleasant pictures. Early, attentional startle modulation by the affective pictures was intact. NS correlated negatively with startle reactivity and performance in the emotional decision task. These results suggest that the L-DRD4 polymorphism is associated with high NS and risk taking, under-reactivity to unconditioned aversive stimuli, constricted emotional responses but preserved attentional processing of emotional stimuli and efficient problem solving. These results extend animal evidence on DRD4-mediated control of decision making and emotional processing to humans. The proposed role of the NS phenotype in human evolution and in disorders of impulsivity is discussed under the light of the present findings.

link

Quote:

The 7-repeat allele was the second most common (global mean = 20.6%), appearing quite frequently in the Americas (mean frequency = 48.3%) but only occasionally in East and South Asia (mean frequency = 1.9%).

link

Quote:

the DRD4 7R allele originated as a rare mutational event (or events) that nevertheless increased to high frequency in human populations by positive selection.

link

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

I think what HHBH is trying to imply, is that the USA is made up of immigrants from literally everywhere and most of those would've come from the lower levels of society from the country where they came from, hence violence and risky behaviour wasn't anything new to them.

Nope. I'm referring to the descendents of White, European immigrants during the settling period, meaning those who came during the 20th century (the stimuli/impetus for coming to the US changed drastically after this period) & how this resulted in different frequency of certain genetic traits as opposed to those in the old country.

Quote:

Regardless of the ultimate details, is it reasonable to think that a single gene variation can modify human behavior yet be shaped by cultural diversity? We argue that just such single-gene changes regulating complex social behavior have been identified in other social organisms (Krieger and Ross 2002). We see no reason to think humans should be exempt from similar Darwinian selection (Darwin 1871). The evolutionary payoff of an individual’s behavior in complex human societies, obviously, will depend strongly on the reaction of others to that behavior (Betzig 1993; Buss 1999; Ding et al. 2002; Harpending and Cochran 2002; Fehr and Fischbacher 2003). We suggest the exciting possibility that the DRD4 locus is a prime candidate for investigating such gene and culture interactions.

&

we suggest entertaining the possibility that predisposing alleles in fact are under positive selection and only result in deleterious effects when combined with other environmental/genetic factors. In this context, it is possible that prior selective constraints are no longer operating on this gene. It is possible also to speculate, however, that the very traits that may be selected for in individuals possessing a DRD4 7R allele may predispose behaviors that are deemed inappropriate in the typical classroom setting and hence diagnosed as ADHD.

link

....the point being, white americans tend to be more violent than their European counterparts because prior to the 20th century the culture & socio-economic system of the country made it so these traits paid off more.

This is my best guess as to why this country is more violent than other nations with similar levels of economic development.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermione

Why the **** are we talking about immigrants? Are we forgetting that most of these crazy massacres have been committed by privileged WHITE MEN??? Does that really gall you hhbh? I bet it bloody does.

No, it doesn't. The point you're making is not a new one, & the over representation of white males in such incidents has been pointed out by, among others, Jared Taylor.

Key · 12-26-2012, 03:33 PM

^They weren't joking when they said you have no idea how to debate. Holy ****.

Neapolitan · 12-26-2012, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ki

^They weren't joking when they said you have no idea how to debate. Holy ****.

I don't see him as an excellent debator. His post are short somtimes cryptic, and his logic is somewhat disconnected. It doesn't flow from one point to another.

Paedantic Basterd · 12-26-2012, 03:49 PM

That link isn't even about aggressive behaviour, it's about decision making and cognitive processes. "Risky decision making" refers to making a decision under circumstances where the outcome is uncertain. Nowhere in either abstract do I see where this study is about aggression.

EDIT: "Risky behaviour" in your sources, and in the world of psychology means something quite a lot more specific than you yourself have meant it, so your use of psychological sources appears to me to be irrelevant.

EDIT:

Quote:

One may ask why an allele that seems to have undergone strong positive selection in human populations nevertheless is now disproportionately represented in individuals diagnosed with ADHD. The common variant/common disorder hypothesis (16) proposes that common genetic variation is related to common disease either because the disease is a product of a new environment (such that genotypes associated with the disorder were not eliminated in the past) or the disorder has small effects on fitness (because it is late onset).

Your source isn't about regional "novelty seeking" behaviour either, it's about the connection between "novelty seeking" behaviour and ADHD. What were these sources supposed to illustrate again?

TheBig3 · 12-26-2012, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

HHBH is the worlds most successful troll, I swear to god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermione

What point?

This one.

Paedantic Basterd · 12-26-2012, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Researchers have found an inverse relationship between immigrant status
and violence perpetration. Most studies have examined Mexican immigrants,
and few have assessed immigration factors other than nativity. Additionally,
the majority have focused on the most serious forms of violence despite the
fact that moderate violence is more common.

Using data from the 2008 Boston Youth Survey, we generated prevalence
estimates of peer violence perpetration across immigration related factors,
examined whether risk factors for peer violence differed by these variables,
and explored the contribution of risk factors to peer violence perpetration.
Recent immigrants had a significantly lower prevalence of peer violence
compared to each other generations/time in U.S. group.

Quote:

compared to
other groups, recent immigrants were less likely to have used substances,
and were more likely earn A’s and B’s in school. Recent immigrants had a
significantly lower risk of violence perpetration relative to U.S.-born (RR =
0.35, 95% CI: 0.19, 0.62). Adjusting for known risk factors did not attenuate
differences in risk.

Almeida, J. Et al. Peer Violence Perpetration Among Urban Adolescents: Dispelling the Myth of the Violent Immigrant, Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2011.

At the very least, this source is relevant in four ways. 1) Discusses aggressive behaviour and violence, 2) Discusses aforementioned in regards to immigrants, 3) The research was based in the US and 4) The research was based on adolescents (as we are discussing school shootings, this seemed important).

Importantly:

Quote:

While immigrant youth had a lower risk of peer violence, the protective
effect was diminished among immigrants who had resided in the U.S. for >4
years. This pattern demonstrates that negative assimilation occurs within the
first generation, not just across generations. Results suggest that perpetration
of violence worsens with increased time in the U.S.

It would appear that violent behaviour is in the US's existing culture, not that which has been brought in from abroad.

Quote:

More recently, sociologists have advanced the idea that immigration is not
related to or may actually be inversely associated with violence (Reid et al.,
2005; Sampson & Bean, 2005; Sampson, Morenoff, & Raudenbush, 2005).
For example, studies have shown that native U.S.-born youth (i.e., second
generation and higher) are more likely to engage in violence than their
foreign-born counterparts (Alaniz, Cartmill, & Parker, 1998; Harris, 1999;
Sampson et al., 2005; Smokowski, David-Ferdon, & Stroupe, 2009).

Quote:

Results of this study both confirm and contradict empirical evidence and
popular opinion regarding violence among immigrants, which date back centuries
(Hagan & Palloni, 1999; Martinez, 2000; Reid et al., 2005; Rumbaut &
Ewing, 2007; Sampson & Bean, 2005). Specifically, we found that on arrival,
immigrants are less likely to engage in peer violence than their U.S.-born
peers, but seem to rapidly adopt the U.S. norms and behaviors that support
violence and aggression toward peers. Although rates of violence among the
foreign-born converged with their U.S.-born counterparts with successive
generations and increased years residing in this country, contrary to public
opinion, we found that immigrants are less likely to engage in peer violence
than their U.S.-born counterparts (Rumbaut & Ewing, 2007).

Neapolitan · 12-26-2012, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

HHBH is the worlds most successful troll, I swear to god.

Maybe he does it for the adulation, and you played right into his hand.

TheBig3 · 12-26-2012, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

Maybe he does it for the adulation, and you played right into his hand.

I'm changing my vote on "Worst Debater."

12-26-2012, 02:41 PM	#401 (permalink)
~~Sansa Stark~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: The Eyrie, Vale of Arryn, Westeros Posts: 3,234	What point?

12-26-2012, 03:33 PM	#404 (permalink)
Key . Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 13,153	^They weren't joking when they said you have no idea how to debate. Holy ****.