Unknown Soldier

That's not what's being debated here, what is being debated is how unjust the legal system is there to impose this type of sentence. Also you've avoided again the question that was put to you earlier. And that was why should you feel so strongly about them being sentenced, when you don't overly care about the actual crime?

Nobody has suggested that, all that I've suggested is that they didn't know the severity of the crime when caught. Cocaine is a party drug that people have a good time with and there is no reason why two silly young girls should be aware of the draconian laws attached to it in Peru. I very much doubt that the dealers that got them involved, were on-hand to issue warnings about the risks that the operation entailed.

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Trollheart

I don't get why you guys don't seem to think this is a big deal. Seriously, what would you have happen? It's not like they tried to smuggle a small amount of coke in: it was eleven kilos! That's like filling my biggest, fattest cat up with coke and then cloning him twice and filling those two up also. That is a LOT of coke! This is no "oh we didn't know" situation: these girls clearly knew they were taking a risk but decided the money was worth it. How US can say they may not have known Peruvian law is beyond me: it's well known that countries outside of Europe have harsher laws for drug smuggling to try and reduce it. Anyway, if they were going to do this do you not think they would have checked out the penalties if they were caught? If they didn't they were either monumentally stupid or believed there was no chance they would get caught OR if they did, they could lie their way out of it.

Nobody likes being used. People have been used here: used to try to protest the innocence of two stupid women who do not deserve it, and people are angry at them. I can't understand your tolerance for this sort of thing. Why should it NOT be a big deal? What sort of message does it send to future would-be smugglers if these people are not clamped down upon hard?

And yes, I know the barons get off because they can pay, but hey that's just how the world works. Same as when the scandal in Abu Gharib broke: who went down? A few soldiers and some bog-level officers. No top brass, even though it was clear they knew and had possibly condoned this behaviour. If this was an ideal world ALL of the guilty would be punished but it's not and sometimes it's the foot soldiers who pay. The fact that they are willing to BE footsoldiers makes them just as guilty and just as liable to prosecution as the bosses.

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Unknown Soldier

It certainly is a lot of coke and its seizure should have had some effect on the supply of it in Europe......but that is not going to be the case and cocaine will continue to flow here. But how is that possible when airport security there is that strict? It should be easy to seize nearly all the coke that goes through shouldn't it? But no, it still comes through and the corrupt officials there are paid to look the other way, but of course to show the international community that Peru is doing their bit, they have to seize some and make an example of the carriers. All these girls were was unlucky, as had they had better protectors they would've walked away after a pay-off before it became public knowledge. Again I stress that it's impossible to have any real justice under these circumstances.

You might know this, I might know this, but that doesn't mean that all elements of the population are going to be equally aware.

Like I said, there is a good chance they may not have been aware, only time will tell on this with the trial.

Whether you clamp down hard on these people makes no difference, smuggling will go on as it's good business for all concerned. Unless you address the production of the product and educate the users more, harsh prison sentences will have little effect here.

The barons get off and the foot soldiers pay the price for failure, I won't argue that it's not the way of the world, but don't ask me to agree with punishing the foot soldiers with harsh laws, while the drug barons walk free.

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The Batlord

It sounds to me like you favor an amoral system of laws that demands obedience through fear rather than any kind of moral obligation.

I don't know how you can claim such empathy for the victims but then turn around and feel nothing for the accused. It would be one thing if these were hardened, violent criminals, but your contempt for people who are really just idiots shows more callousness than it does respect for justice.

I know that all sounds like personal attacks, but the problem I have with the modern criminal justice system is that it seems more like vengeance than any kind of justice and I think that needs to be pointed out. If all you want is to punish them then put their eyes out and be done with it, but if you want justice then start thinking about rehabilitation rather than throwing non-violent morons into a dungeon for two decades to rot.

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Trollheart

Yeah but you seem to be going the other way, like "it's not their fault, let them go, they knew no better". I mean, come on, wtf? This from a man whose tagline says "children should die"? I know it's a joke but you've never come across to me as someone who would advocate going easy on criminals. It's not like they were forced to do it (despite their swiss cheese story)!

Next you'll be saying that hit men shouldn't be jailed as they're just carrying out the orders of a higher-up! The whole "I was only following orders" or "I'm a small cog in a larger wheel" argument doesn't wash with me. US's community service thing might or might not work, but what do you say the solution should be? How would you discourage people from doing this? Would you discourage them, or do you just think it's me getting my knickers in a twist over something small?

(I like the idea of putting out their eyes, though...)

Seriously, I'd like to know: what solution/sentence do or would you propose for this sort of crime? Never mind who's ultimately responsible; those who take the risks and want to share in the spoils should be prepared to share in the punishment, so please don't tell me they're unwitting pawns or something...

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Unknown Soldier

Using a hitman as an example is not a very good one. A hitman is normally an ex-military or espionage agent that has decided to use their skills as an assassin. They're professionals that are normally well remunerated and fully aware of the environment that they're working in. The average drug mule is normally somebody that is easy and vulnerable prey for the drug cartels and is on the promise of easy money, which they may or may not even get.

The community service concept would work, it the Peruvian authorities were remotely interested in the rehabilitation of the offender and what the offender could offer the local community. But they're not and seem to view making examples with punitive punishments their top priority here. But then again should anything else be expected from them, they have no real concept of democracy and fairness in justice is simply an alien concept to them.

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Trollheart

Yeah but I want to know what HIS solution or suggestion is...

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

Trollheart

On a slightly non-related subject, 216 your avatar is giving me a headache.

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

Unknown Soldier

Sorry if I was trying to wear the bat cape again, I go back to being the riddler again.

Also your last 'quote' wasn't done properly and it looks like I've written it.

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The Batlord

I'm not arguing that at all. They certainly did the crime and should be dealt with accordingly. I'm saying that they're idiots, not violent criminals. People who need to be removed from society should get long-term sentences (well, I have opinions on that, but for the purposes of the current justice system we'll say that) not naive morons who are probably just entertaining romantic Scar Face fantasies. They may know about the consequences of drug smuggling, both on themselves and on the people who will buy the drugs, but I doubt they have any real, visceral appreciation for them on the perceptual level, just like a teen drunk driver likely knows they might kill themselves, but the possibility isn't really "real" to them.

P.S. I don't really care about these people, I just have an issue with your line of reasoning in general and feel it to be irrational and harmful.

Hitmen are violent criminals. See above.

Well, for starters, a five years sentence is about as fair as we're going to get I imagine. In a perfect world though this whole concept of justice as punishment should be done away with. I don't believe in free will, at least not in some magical, religious form. I think our actions are as predetermined by mathematics as a bouncing ball or any other inanimate object. If that's true then the concept of responsibility is based on faulty logic, and punishing people for something because they are "responsible" is as irrational as punishing an asteroid for killing the dinosaurs. The justice system, rather than worrying about punishment, should treat a crime as evidence of some kind of social dysfunction that needs to be "fixed".

If this particular argument goes much farther then it might make sense to split it into its own thread.

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