cops vs black people round 3; poolpartygate

fiddler · 06-17-2015, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

This is why I'm leery of weighing in on things like this. I'm not a cop, I don't know the regs, I don't know what it's like to go into any kind of situation a cop might have to go into, and so it's arrogant of me to assume that I know anything about anything.

On the one hand, the dude definitely looked out of control compared to his fellow officers, but without them to compare him against, it would be hard to know how justified his reaction was. For all I know, those kids could have been threatening him, or all but attacking him before the camera came out.

I'd like to think that the kind of training an officer receives would make him mentally prepared to deal with something as seemingly innocuous as a pool party in what seemed like a gated community, but if it were me, and I was surrounded by what looked like hostile teenagers (when it comes to physical confrontations, teenagers ≠ children), I can't honestly say that my fear response wouldn't lead me to react inappropriately by the standards of police regulations, and cops aren't infallible supermen either. Especially since it looked like the other police didn't show up until at least some time later, leaving him the lone officer dealing with the situation at first.

Slamming a young girl against the ground definitely looks unnecessary on its face, but the video pretty much starts with that, so for all I know she might have just struck him, or thrown something at him, and with the atmosphere in his direct proximity, ending that specific "problem" may have seemed the more pressing concern than showing more restraint. That's hypothetical of course, but I'm just pointing out that the video clearly doesn't tell the whole story.

I'll defer to 5-0 (i.e. fiddler) when it comes to when it is acceptable to pull your weapon, but the way the two guys antagonizing the officer were carrying on, he could clearly be justified in considering it provocative to some extent, and without the context of the entire incident, it's impossible (at least for me as a civvy) to know if the level of antagonism between the two parties had reached a point where pulling a weapon of some sort would fall under regulations.

Doesn't look like it to me, but I'm ignorant of both specific police regulations and the context of the entire incident, so I'm not willing to come down on either side ATM. Either way though, the officer definitely appeared to have been handling the situation poorly. In that sense, it seems comparable to Ferguson, since, no matter how poorly the subject in question may have handled the situation, that doesn't mean that he then has no right to defend himself, like he should be punished with possible death just for being an idiot.

Is 5-0 my nickname here or something?

If you pull your sidearm, it is because you fear for your life and that you are prepared to defend yourself with deadly force. Because that's what it boils down to, and that's how police are trained. When you pull your side arm and point it at someone, you are prepared and willing to shoot them. And to say that you are genuinely afraid of a bunch of near-naked teenagers enough to shoot them is a far fetch to me, anyways. One must remember that when as a police officer you opt for your pistol instead of say pepper spray, the aim is to kill. If you shoot at someone, you're aiming to kill.

And you're right, we do not know the full scope of the situation. But there are a few things we can assume based on what IS there:

Any officer arriving on this scene would call for backup because of the sheer size of the crowd;
This is evidenced because of the backup showing up. Unless dispatch thinks you're in trouble, backup doesn't just "show up" uninvited;
The teenagers probably knew that backup was on the way, and they stuck around. If you're intending to ambush a lone cop, you don't stick around for the backup to arrive. You haul ass;
The officer was carrying non-lethal options such as his taser or spray because it's generally SOP that they be carried at all times.
Because of mob mentality, the officer is lucky that it didn't become a mob before backup arrived.

Cops are not unbreakable creatures, their bones break. And in this situation, had the mob mentality kicked in, that cop would have been hurt or worse. This brings me to my next point: mob mentality doesn't just happen. It's often primed before hand and then is triggered by a specific event. In this case, the cop getting involved or slamming the girl to the ground would be the trigger. Which leads me to believe that the teenagers really were just having fun until someone called the cops on them. Otherwise I believe that they would have swarmed on the officer(s).

My next point is this: if you can't handle being taunted by some teenagers, then you have absolutely no business being a police officer. Cops get taunted every day. Called names, insulted, etc. It's a fact of life because regardless of how nice you are or how professional there will always be people who simply don't like you because of your chosen profession. Granted having anything thrown at you will get under your skin, there's again better ways to handle the situation. Unless someone is resisting arrest you don't just slam them into the ground. The goal is to de-escalate the situation, not make it worse.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 06-17-2015, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

I'm a pussy. Of course I am.

ftfy

The Batlord · 06-17-2015, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiddler

Is 5-0 my nickname here or something?

You're the Fuzz on a forum filled with stoners. It is what it is.

Chula Vista · 06-17-2015, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiddler

And you're right, we do not know the full scope of the situation. But there are a few things we can assume based on what IS there:

Any officer arriving on this scene would call for backup because of the sheer size of the crowd;
This is evidenced because of the backup showing up. Unless dispatch thinks you're in trouble, backup doesn't just "show up" uninvited;
The teenagers probably knew that backup was on the way, and they stuck around. If you're intending to ambush a lone cop, you don't stick around for the backup to arrive. You haul ass;
The officer was carrying non-lethal options such as his taser or spray because it's generally SOP that they be carried at all times.
Because of mob mentality, the officer is lucky that it didn't become a mob before backup arrived.

Assuming there wasn't any crimes in process shouldn't the first cop arriving on the scene wait for his backup before confronting such a large crowd?

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 06-17-2015, 10:39 AM

lol @ 5-0 & the fuzz

even mb's cop slang is retro hipster

fiddler · 06-17-2015, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

You're the Fuzz on a forum filled with stoners. It is what it is.

On the flip side of that coin I'd be the one to gamble with your stoned ass. Make ya bet. If you can do ____ (whilst stoned clearly) I'll let you go. If not, I'm throwing you in the paddy wagon!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

Assuming there wasn't any crimes in process shouldn't the first cop arriving on the scene wait for his backup before confronting such a large crowd?

It goes back to what I was saying, if the crowd was out of control and the officer feared for his safety, he should have waited. But if you ask me, by engaging with the crowd before his backup arrived, clearly, he wasn't THAT afraid of the situation. For instance cops work big events like concerts all the time. You're one cop in the middle of the crowd where alcohol is generally involved. If there's a fight you might wait for your backup to get there before attempting to separate them, but in this case, clearly he didn't wait.

Do you understand what I'm saying? When you pull your pistol, you fear for your life. But training and SOP dictates that when you do fear for your life, you wait for backup unless someone is in serious danger of getting hurt and you don't have a choice. In this situation, though, there's no reason to believe that he didn't have a choice. There's no reason to believe that he couldn't have just sat in his patrol car for a few minutes until backup got there.

Chula Vista · 06-17-2015, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiddler

There's no reason to believe that he couldn't have just sat in his patrol car for a few minutes until backup got there.

In hindsight I'm sure he wishes he had.

fiddler · 06-17-2015, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

In hindsight I'm sure he wishes he had.

And people can say too oh it's a large crowd who knows what they could be hiding. Where? Between their butt cheeks under their bikini bottoms? Oh looky here I've got an UZI shoved up my vagina! I'mma shoot me some cops! Granted that's an extreme example but c'mon. Never underestimate your opponent, but are you SERIOUSLY afraid of a bunch of near-naked teenagers? At most they'd have a pocket knife. At most. In which case you spray them in the face, and they WILL drop the knife, and you arrest them. Or if you're fancy you take it from them. Either way you don't shoot them.

Moss · 06-17-2015, 11:46 AM

Let's face it, many officers (calm down, not all) have a power trip and expect complete, blind, groveling obedience in all situations. When they don't get that, they get pissed and start lashing out with a "How dare you disobey me" attitude. Combine that with the Us. vs. Them attitude, Racism (c'mon, it's Texas), and training that tells them that they are in constant danger of death and need to be overly reactionary in all situations. I would like to see British police come and train American police officers as they seem to be able to handle situations without shooting people.

The Batlord · 06-17-2015, 11:46 AM

I notice Sean Hannity didn't have any cops on his show who might actually know how the situation should've been handled. He seemed perfectly happy to take the word of arbitrary neighbors who were probably the ones to call the cops in the first place.

06-17-2015, 10:39 AM	#15 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	lol @ 5-0 & the fuzz even mb's cop slang is retro hipster

06-17-2015, 11:46 AM	#19 (permalink)
Moss Scuttle Buttin' Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Boulder Colorado Posts: 972	Let's face it, many officers (calm down, not all) have a power trip and expect complete, blind, groveling obedience in all situations. When they don't get that, they get pissed and start lashing out with a "How dare you disobey me" attitude. Combine that with the Us. vs. Them attitude, Racism (c'mon, it's Texas), and training that tells them that they are in constant danger of death and need to be overly reactionary in all situations. I would like to see British police come and train American police officers as they seem to be able to handle situations without shooting people.