bernie sanders 4 prez

Josef K · 08-17-2015, 11:43 PM

Clinton is still doing way better in South Carolina though, which is pretty important because minorities are such a huge part of the Democratic coalition and Iowa and New Hampshire are really white states. I definitely think he has a chance, something about which I've changed my mind, and I think (and hope) if he does well in Iowa and New Hampshire he'll obviously have better numbers in the rest of the country as a result, but it's really hard to underestimate the amount of institutional support Clinton has, and it's not unreasonable to think that Sanders is going to fall in the polls again.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 08-17-2015, 11:51 PM

translation: i do whatever my reptilian overlords tell me to

The Batlord · 08-18-2015, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

lol....

somebody is forgetting that hillary was also the assumed party favorite in 2008

but your description does fit the 2012 republican primaries... so maybe that is where you are drawing your non-wisdom from

That wasn't really representational, since the whole country went ape**** at the thought of erasing racism forever by electing some black guy. I'm not sure why nobody seems to care about electing the first woman, but I'm assuming it has to do with A.) we've already ended one social scourge, so I guess we're still feeling smug enough over that, and B.) nobody's entirely sure Hillary is a woman.

**Frownland** · 08-18-2015, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

winning the first few states in the primaries means quite a bit in terms of establishing a forward momentum, actually. why else would top tier politicians waste so much time in iowa and new hampshire of all places

It gets your name out there due to the media circus, but aside from that those states are pennies in the electoral college.

Xurtio · 08-18-2015, 07:28 AM

Yeah, Bernie has a chance and his support continues to grow. He does attract the largest crowds, but I'm not sure that's representative of his voting support. I think sanders has quality support (people that will follow him around and support him) but Clinton has quantity support (people that can't be bothered to attend rallies but will vote for her) so there's some sample error in trying to determine vote support from rally support.

Bernie has a chance, but he has a tough road ahead of him (which means he needs our support.. well those of us who are ideological rather than pragmatic voters).

DwnWthVwls · 08-18-2015, 01:40 PM

I don't see how voting for him is ideological, or what is pragmatic about voting for someone who poorly represents you because "they are the only candidate that has a chance". If you don't vote for change it will never happen.

Even if Sanders gets into office and changes nothing or 1 thing, it's still a revolutionary result and a significant indication that the American majority is ready to take back some power from the rich. His success so far is laying the groundwork for like-minded future candidates.

Xurtio · 08-18-2015, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I don't see how voting for him is ideological, or what is pragmatic about voting for someone who poorly represents you because "they are the only candidate that has a chance". If you don't vote for change it will never happen.

Even if Sanders gets into office and changes nothing or 1 thing, it's still a revolutionary result and a significant indication that the American majority is ready to take back some power from the rich. His success so far is laying the groundwork for like-minded future candidates.

Voting for someone that doesn't have a chance would be ideological - it's generally a protest vote (that's not say its not functional, it just functions at a looser-defined social level).

Pragmatic would he accepting the lesser of two evils. Obviously each is not devoid of the other: but one is more pragmatic and one is more ideological.

DwnWthVwls · 08-18-2015, 02:26 PM

The only thing preventing him from having a chance is the people (like Chula) not voting for him because he doesn't have a chance.

I understand what you're saying, it just doesn't seem all that ideological to me. The idiots in this country have just come to accept that voting for the lesser of evils is how presidential elections work when it's really not the case. There is nothing "sensible and realistic" (keywords in the definition of pragmatic), about voting for the lesser of two evils when other options ARE available. Why even vote at that point?

We aren't discussing if Bernie can have an effect on things once he is in the whitehouse, we are discussing the possibility he can become president.

**Frownland** · 08-18-2015, 02:36 PM

Living in California, I hear a lot of conservatives saying that they might as well not vote for a Republican because a Democrat is just going to win the state anyway. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Imagine if all the conservatives were as pessimistic as that? They're effectively making themselves a silent majority if it's as widespread as it seems from my experiences.

It's the same thing as voting for Hillary when you prefer Sanders imo.

Xurtio · 08-18-2015, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

The only thing preventing him from having a chance is the people (like Chula) not voting for him because he doesn't have a chance.

I understand what you're saying, it just doesn't seem all that ideological to me. The idiots in this country have just come to accept that voting for the lesser of evils is how presidential elections work when it's really not the case. There is nothing "sensible and realistic" (keywords in the definition of pragmatic), about voting for the lesser of two evils when other options ARE available. Why even vote at that point?

We aren't discussing if Bernie can have an effect on things once he is in the whitehouse, we are discussing the possibility he can become president.

Whether Bernie is actually an option or not is an unknown. It would be insensible to give the presidency to conservatives (assuming you're a liberal) just to vote for Bernie (they'd have a full house too, I believe). It would be sensible to vote for Bernie if you knew he would win. It's too early to tell where we actually are, though.

08-18-2015, 07:28 AM	#235 (permalink)
Xurtio Brain Licker Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 1,083	Yeah, Bernie has a chance and his support continues to grow. He does attract the largest crowds, but I'm not sure that's representative of his voting support. I think sanders has quality support (people that will follow him around and support him) but Clinton has quantity support (people that can't be bothered to attend rallies but will vote for her) so there's some sample error in trying to determine vote support from rally support. Bernie has a chance, but he has a tough road ahead of him (which means he needs our support.. well those of us who are ideological rather than pragmatic voters). __________________ H̓̇̅̉yͤ͏mͬ͂ͧn͑̽̽̌ͪ̑͐͟o̴͊̈́͑̇m͛͌̓ͦ̑aͫ̽ͤ̇n̅̎͐̒ͫ͐c̆ͯͫ̋ ̔̃́eͯ͒rͬͬ̄҉

08-18-2015, 02:36 PM	#239 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,548	Living in California, I hear a lot of conservatives saying that they might as well not vote for a Republican because a Democrat is just going to win the state anyway. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Imagine if all the conservatives were as pessimistic as that? They're effectively making themselves a silent majority if it's as widespread as it seems from my experiences. It's the same thing as voting for Hillary when you prefer Sanders imo. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

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08-17-2015, 11:43 PM	#231 (permalink)
Josef K A Jew on a motorbike! Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 800	Clinton is still doing way better in South Carolina though, which is pretty important because minorities are such a huge part of the Democratic coalition and Iowa and New Hampshire are really white states. I definitely think he has a chance, something about which I've changed my mind, and I think (and hope) if he does well in Iowa and New Hampshire he'll obviously have better numbers in the rest of the country as a result, but it's really hard to underestimate the amount of institutional support Clinton has, and it's not unreasonable to think that Sanders is going to fall in the polls again.

08-17-2015, 11:51 PM	#232 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	translation: i do whatever my reptilian overlords tell me to