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Old 04-05-2021, 05:10 PM   #10401 (permalink)
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Exactly where I was going with it.

Karl Marx believed that we needed capitalism's innovation in industrialization to create the abundance that we didn't have before. Ant believes that innovating isn't finished yet. The only difference being that Ant believes (correct me if I'm wrong) we will naturally fall into a socialist society when work becomes obsolete while Marx believed that we can't truly have a viable socialist revolution with out the working class taking the means of production.
he's the most dishonest person on the subject I've ever had the displeasure of posting on the same board with
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Old 04-05-2021, 05:19 PM   #10402 (permalink)
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I think marx actually believed that the conditions of capitalism would inevitably lead to the class consciousness which would result in the proles seizing the means of production.... Isn't that his whole spiel on the hegelian dialectic and history... Tbh I never could force myself to learn enough about philosophy to understand Hegel.
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Old 04-05-2021, 06:03 PM   #10403 (permalink)
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he's the most dishonest person on the subject I've ever had the displeasure of posting on the same board with
Sour grapes much?

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I think marx actually believed that the conditions of capitalism would inevitably lead to the class consciousness which would result in the proles seizing the means of production.... Isn't that his whole spiel on the hegelian dialectic and history... Tbh I never could force myself to learn enough about philosophy to understand Hegel.
There will never be a true class conscious "awakening" because the vast majority of people can't imagine a future that isn't capitalist. The whole "end of history" spiel. Hegel touches upon it and Fisher does pretty well with the subject too.
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Old 04-05-2021, 06:08 PM   #10404 (permalink)
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Sour grapes much?
anyone can go through your post history to see what I'm talking about
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Old 04-05-2021, 06:18 PM   #10405 (permalink)
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anyone can go through your post history to see what I'm talking about
I distinctly remember calling you a Strawmanning Nutria last year. That was great.
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Old 04-05-2021, 11:16 PM   #10406 (permalink)
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Sour grapes much?



There will never be a true class conscious "awakening" because the vast majority of people can't imagine a future that isn't capitalist. The whole "end of history" spiel. Hegel touches upon it and Fisher does pretty well with the subject too.
to me the marxist idea that the conditions of capitalism will inevitably lead to class consciousness which leads to revolution is equally naive as assuming technology will free us from inequality

It's like yes obviously without some sort of catastrophe technological progress will probably continue but I see no indication that it is going to flatten the social hierarchy. If anything it is just as likely to be weaponized to magnify said class distinctions.

And all of that is of course ignoring the many possible catastrophes which can cause the system to crumble and society to regress instead of continuing to progress... Ie why I find the idea of the inevitability of progress so cute. It's like what's that old saying by Isaac newton? What goes up will just continue to go up forever and nothing can bring it back down again. That's the saying, isn't it??
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:47 PM   #10407 (permalink)
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Marx believed capitalism was a stage of human development like feudalism

it would have seemed equally naive to think this system would be The End of History

I'm more with Foccault now in thinking that it's only important to cut at the mythology of capitalism ...our imaginations are limited by being raised within it
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:56 PM   #10408 (permalink)
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in the Manifesto Marx uses poetic revolutionary language to describe a situation where peasants suddenly throw down their shovels...and that's the prevailing image

however it's important to remember that The Manifesto is a call to arms, not an academic writing

he would outline in his other works that he believed the breakdown of Capitalism would be a slow process where it succumbed to its own internal contradictions just like the systems that predated it
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Old 04-06-2021, 09:44 PM   #10409 (permalink)
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It's unclear to me how the worker co-ops that are being championed by the socialist left won't devolve into trade guilds as you have in euro nations that act like a cabal. I'm from a pro-union state and if you want to get into the, say, sprinkler fitters union you basically need to know a guy.

I assume we're supposed to like this more because they work with their hands rather than go to B school and own yachts, but neither is going to produce a healthy economy.

All the grand ideas I hear from other people don't seem to be able to supersede what a 21st Century New Deal set of policies would lead to. I.e. The New Deal without the horribly racial and segregationist policies we had the last time.
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Old 04-06-2021, 10:49 PM   #10410 (permalink)
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It's unclear to me how the worker co-ops that are being championed by the socialist left won't devolve into trade guilds as you have in euro nations that act like a cabal. I'm from a pro-union state and if you want to get into the, say, sprinkler fitters union you basically need to know a guy.

I assume we're supposed to like this more because they work with their hands rather than go to B school and own yachts, but neither is going to produce a healthy economy.

All the grand ideas I hear from other people don't seem to be able to supersede what a 21st Century New Deal set of policies would lead to. I.e. The New Deal without the horribly racial and segregationist policies we had the last time.
What the **** are you talking about with cabals? Are you describing bad things? I mean you just threw around "cabal" like it was supposed to describe a central American Republic we'd overthrown with fascist death squads but didn't even bother with specifics.
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