Political Discussions for "Adults"

Anteater · 04-05-2021, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

anyone can go through your post history to see what I'm talking about

I distinctly remember calling you a Strawmanning Nutria last year. That was great.

~~jwb~~ · 04-05-2021, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Sour grapes much?

There will never be a true class conscious "awakening" because the vast majority of people can't imagine a future that isn't capitalist. The whole "end of history" spiel. Hegel touches upon it and Fisher does pretty well with the subject too.

to me the marxist idea that the conditions of capitalism will inevitably lead to class consciousness which leads to revolution is equally naive as assuming technology will free us from inequality

It's like yes obviously without some sort of catastrophe technological progress will probably continue but I see no indication that it is going to flatten the social hierarchy. If anything it is just as likely to be weaponized to magnify said class distinctions.

And all of that is of course ignoring the many possible catastrophes which can cause the system to crumble and society to regress instead of continuing to progress... Ie why I find the idea of the inevitability of progress so cute. It's like what's that old saying by Isaac newton? What goes up will just continue to go up forever and nothing can bring it back down again. That's the saying, isn't it??

TheBig3 · 04-06-2021, 09:44 PM

It's unclear to me how the worker co-ops that are being championed by the socialist left won't devolve into trade guilds as you have in euro nations that act like a cabal. I'm from a pro-union state and if you want to get into the, say, sprinkler fitters union you basically need to know a guy.

I assume we're supposed to like this more because they work with their hands rather than go to B school and own yachts, but neither is going to produce a healthy economy.

All the grand ideas I hear from other people don't seem to be able to supersede what a 21st Century New Deal set of policies would lead to. I.e. The New Deal without the horribly racial and segregationist policies we had the last time.

The Batlord · 04-06-2021, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

It's unclear to me how the worker co-ops that are being championed by the socialist left won't devolve into trade guilds as you have in euro nations that act like a cabal. I'm from a pro-union state and if you want to get into the, say, sprinkler fitters union you basically need to know a guy.

I assume we're supposed to like this more because they work with their hands rather than go to B school and own yachts, but neither is going to produce a healthy economy.

All the grand ideas I hear from other people don't seem to be able to supersede what a 21st Century New Deal set of policies would lead to. I.e. The New Deal without the horribly racial and segregationist policies we had the last time.

What the **** are you talking about with cabals? Are you describing bad things? I mean you just threw around "cabal" like it was supposed to describe a central American Republic we'd overthrown with fascist death squads but didn't even bother with specifics.

~~jwb~~ · 04-07-2021, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

in the Manifesto Marx uses poetic revolutionary language to describe a situation where peasants suddenly throw down their shovels...and that's the prevailing image

however it's important to remember that The Manifesto is a call to arms, not an academic writing

he would outline in his other works that he believed the breakdown of Capitalism would be a slow process where it succumbed to its own internal contradictions just like the systems that predated it

the manifesto was written on the eve of impending revolution in Europe. Those revolutions were just unsuccessful. It seems pretty plausible to me that maybe Marx was more optimistic about the revolutionary prophesy early on and maybe became a bit more reserved and realistic later in life after life forced him to swallow some bitter truths.

Either way.. What contradictions are you referring to specifically?

~~jwb~~ · 04-07-2021, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

What the **** are you talking about with cabals? Are you describing bad things? I mean you just threw around "cabal" like it was supposed to describe a central American Republic we'd overthrown with fascist death squads but didn't even bother with specifics.

it sounds to me like he's talking about cabal in the sense of a group of people that essentially gain an unjustified stranglehold on a particular market... Through unionizing.

But honestly I don't see the connection to co ops there. Unions basically exist as a negotiating tactic between owners and workers... If you're dealing with a co ops where the workers collectively own the business why would they need to unionize???

The Batlord · 04-07-2021, 06:20 AM

Democrat + anti-union = Hitler

Lucem Ferre · 04-07-2021, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

we are a mixed economy

No ****, but not mixed enough. IDK if there even is an economy that isn't mixed to some extent.

TheBig3 · 04-07-2021, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

it sounds to me like he's talking about cabal in the sense of a group of people that essentially gain an unjustified stranglehold on a particular market... Through unionizing.

But honestly I don't see the connection to co ops there. Unions basically exist as a negotiating tactic between owners and workers... If you're dealing with a co ops where the workers collectively own the business why would they need to unionize???

I think I'm just arguing from a personal grievance. In almost any instance, I see a highly selective elitist group (which is what I meant by cabal) as hand-selecting who gets in and who doesn't. In a co-op, the employees vote, but as I recall that isn't on who is hired (maybe I'm wrong but that wouldn't add up). To that end, the game still gets rigged in favor of the graft.

After years of working in the non-profit sector, I think I'm just wildly bitter to the group-think that exists in certain industries.

Mindfulness · 04-07-2021, 09:31 PM

JWB for president!

04-06-2021, 09:44 PM	#9233 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	It's unclear to me how the worker co-ops that are being championed by the socialist left won't devolve into trade guilds as you have in euro nations that act like a cabal. I'm from a pro-union state and if you want to get into the, say, sprinkler fitters union you basically need to know a guy. I assume we're supposed to like this more because they work with their hands rather than go to B school and own yachts, but neither is going to produce a healthy economy. All the grand ideas I hear from other people don't seem to be able to supersede what a 21st Century New Deal set of policies would lead to. I.e. The New Deal without the horribly racial and segregationist policies we had the last time. __________________ I've moved to a new address

04-07-2021, 09:31 PM	#9240 (permalink)
Mindfulness Be aware of the psyop Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 9,999	JWB for president! __________________ YouTube Videos The Discord Server February 28th, 2024