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Old 07-13-2022, 05:53 PM   #311 (permalink)
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Yeah I'm aware that there are plenty of lefties out there who say **** like "the colonized should be able to decide whether they want to live with their colonizers" and don't like to talk about the implications but that's not at all the same as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that the Jews control the banks and try to genocide white people through immigration. I condemn both but the former is generally well-meaning but misguided because they don't want to or don't have the brain power to accept a complicated world without easy solutions.
For the govt of Iran they're clearly one and the same, and that's another fact that cannot be extricated from the equation.

The anti-colonial discourse of "indigenous to the land" has a nasty double edge: you don't even have to replace "invader" with "settler" for parts of the Christchurch shooter's manifesto to be indistinguishable from thousands of Twitter accounts with pinned Franz Fanon quotations (I say this as an admirer of Fanon who has taught his work).

Anyway, I hate talking about all that. That Trump bit about how Elon's business model would fail with govt subsidies, that was good.

Last edited by jadis; 07-13-2022 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 07-13-2022, 05:56 PM   #312 (permalink)
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One of the most absurd loads of trash ever to come out of that man’s mouth. Too stupid to know his words had an obscene double meaning. ERK! Lets not go there.
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Old 07-13-2022, 06:02 PM   #313 (permalink)
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Aryan Marx, thank you for shifting the conservation. Your failure to appreciate the peculiar brand of truth-telling on display is saddening, and not altogether atypical, but nevertheless I applaud you
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Old 07-13-2022, 06:43 PM   #314 (permalink)
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wait were we even having that argument

the reason Israel "takes it out on them" is because they're often on the receiving end of terrorism from the Palestinians, let's be honest wherever we stand on the issue

if Native Americans were setting off bombs you'd see the most vicious treatment of a minority since...well the Native American genocide
Shitlib moment.
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Old 07-13-2022, 07:35 PM   #315 (permalink)
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For the govt of Iran they're clearly one and the same, and that's another fact that cannot be extricated from the equation.

The anti-colonial discourse of "indigenous to the land" has a nasty double edge: you don't even have to replace "invader" with "settler" for parts of the Christchurch shooter's manifesto to be indistinguishable from thousands of Twitter accounts with pinned Franz Fanon quotations (I say this as an admirer of Fanon who has taught his work).

Anyway, I hate talking about all that. That Trump bit about how Elon's business model would fail with govt subsidies, that was good.
Yeah everyone is stupid and problematic but you still have to move forward regardless, and while I do not support shipping all the Israelis back where they came from as much as I don't support shipping all the white South Africans back to England and Holland, no matter how "based" it might feel to say so, you go to war with the army you have, so to speak, which means advocating for the rights of Palestinians and black South Africans as best you can without letting yourself become bogged down in the "doomerism of malicious complexity" that so many in positions of power want to use to make you throw your hands up and ignore the issue, as much as it means pushing back against idiots who just want to feel good by standing up for karma.

Good lord that is a run-on sentence.
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Old 07-13-2022, 07:48 PM   #316 (permalink)
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it isn't this simple

but even if it were we'd be holding Israel to a standard no other country is held to
I never claimed it's simple. I'm just pointing out that it's not that simple either in the view of "Israelis good Palestinians bad" or vice versa.

My own reading of history shows me that the Jews have been persecuted for probably close to a thousand years now, so it's not as if I don't have sympathy for them, of course not. But it does seem a little to me (probably quite wrong and misinformed, would not be the first time) that it's sort of become a case of the abused turning into the abusers, without meaning to trivialise abuse of any kind.

You know what? I'm off to bed. I'll leave this to you more clued-in types.
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One of the most absurd loads of trash ever to come out of that man’s mouth. Too stupid to know his words had an obscene double meaning. ERK! Lets not go there.
Uh, I somehow think he did know...

Those who protest the loudest, and all that.
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Old 07-13-2022, 09:25 PM   #317 (permalink)
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Yeah everyone is stupid and problematic but you still have to move forward regardless, and while I do not support shipping all the Israelis back where they came from as much as I don't support shipping all the white South Africans back to England and Holland, no matter how "based" it might feel to say so, you go to war with the army you have, so to speak, which means advocating for the rights of Palestinians and black South Africans as best you can without letting yourself become bogged down in the "doomerism of malicious complexity" that so many in positions of power want to use to make you throw your hands up and ignore the issue, as much as it means pushing back against idiots who just want to feel good by standing up for karma.

Good lord that is a run-on sentence.
The point I wanted to make is that the far right is far from being alone in having a problem with the Jewish question. And it can't be dismissed as a few idiots on Twitter: what Marx, Proudhon, Bakunin etc had to say about it should give one pause. I'm not sure the problem they had with it wasn't, on some level, similar to the problem Christianity has historically had with it: that its particularism (ethnocentrism, if you will) should've been superseded by the universalism of the gospel (for Marx etc read "should be superseded in the future by the classless utopia of communism"). And yet it remained stuck bang in the middle of the Christian canon, supplying Christianity with its creation myth and so much more. This uncomfortable situation has to be dealt with somehow etc.
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Old 07-13-2022, 09:35 PM   #318 (permalink)
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Yeah I think you're completely ignoring the conspiracist nature of modern right wing anti-Semitism to make leftist criticism of Israel something that it is not so that you can make it something you can make a "both sides" criticism. Nobody in the modern left is attacking Judaism as a vehicle for disrupting class consciousness.
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 07-13-2022, 11:17 PM   #319 (permalink)
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Yeah I think you're completely ignoring the conspiracist nature of modern right wing anti-Semitism to make leftist criticism of Israel something that it is not so that you can make it something you can make a "both sides" criticism. Nobody in the modern left is attacking Judaism as a vehicle for disrupting class consciousness.
Why would I ignore it? It's so out in the open... From the Dreyfus affair to Judeo-Bolshevism to Soros and ZOG etc.

My point here is the perfectly straightforward one that the left has historically had and continues to have a problematic relation to the Jewish question, from the 19th century to post-colonialism. That antisemitism is not exclusively an affair of the right. Period. I have no intention of wading into what seems to you the next logical step, i.e. a comparison between or some speculation on the relation between right and left antisemitisms. "Comparing stuff to Auschwitz" is a genre of discourse I have no interest in, sorry.

My starting point in any discussion of Israel is the realities detailed in this B'tselem report. You clearly have a very vague idea of what the Palestinian territories are, not that absurd ignorance has ever stopped you from arguing about anything.


P.S. The solidarity the Irish have with the Palestinian cause is kinda lovable, ngl

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Old 07-13-2022, 11:36 PM   #320 (permalink)
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Shitlib moment.
I'm not pro-Israel really, but hamas is not looking for a 2 state or even 1 state solution either

the left's instinct to always side with the underdog maybe shields some of us from the ****ty reality that there's no good guys in this one
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