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Old 07-14-2022, 01:00 PM   #351 (permalink)
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Yep, and that's why Israel lets them exist while shutting down nonterrorist Palestinian rights organizations: to force the false dichotomy of one ethnostate versus another.
I agree there are human rights violations, and if the US gov gave a single **** about human rights it wouldn't have a pro-Israel stance

however, Israel can never really allow Palestinian's representation because of the clear reality that they'd move to dissolve Israel as pretty much the 2nd order of business

it is not an all that radical position to the average Palestinian
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Old 07-14-2022, 01:15 PM   #352 (permalink)
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Hamas's violence isn't unprovoked either given that they gained support after decades of ghettoization, massacres, and expulsion. Bofsydz except without tacitly endorsing a genocidal ethnostate.
Explain this word for us thicks please?
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Old 07-14-2022, 01:31 PM   #353 (permalink)
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I agree there are human rights violations, and if the US gov gave a single **** about human rights it wouldn't have a pro-Israel stance

however, Israel can never really allow Palestinian's representation because of the clear reality that they'd move to dissolve Israel as pretty much the 2nd order of business

it is not an all that radical position to the average Palestinian
There's more Jews in Israel than Palestinians. How would they dissolve Israel?
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Old 07-14-2022, 02:27 PM   #354 (permalink)
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I agree there are human rights violations, and if the US gov gave a single **** about human rights it wouldn't have a pro-Israel stance

however, Israel can never really allow Palestinian's representation because of the clear reality that they'd move to dissolve Israel as pretty much the 2nd order of business

it is not an all that radical position to the average Palestinian
Pretty sure that would soften if they weren't treated like roaches.

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Explain this word for us thicks please?
It's the "both sides" mantra that people use to build false equivalencies.
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Old 07-14-2022, 03:10 PM   #355 (permalink)
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you kinda just reiterated my point that we don't really consider historical claims to land when establishing boarders...

I'm not pro-Israel, but they're there now, and it'd be pretty stupid to suggest they leave or that they don't have as legitimate a claim to sovereignty as anyone else
We were talking about the wisdom of the creation of the state in the first place. Obviously I agree that now that they're there the solution has to allow for Israel to exist. But I don't think all land claims from the past are equal either.

There's a vast difference between pointing to the as of now unsettled issue presented by the creation of Israel where they displaced and persecuted the existing population, vs pointing to the historical examples of the Jews being exiled from Israel thousands of years ago.

That's the part of Israels creation that was bizarre and pretty much unheard of imo. But either way the victims of their current state still exist without any representation so yes I think their land claims are much stronger than the historical ones Israel used to justify the creation of that state.

Again that doesn't mean Israel can't exist but it's their sole responsibility to correct that situation and deal with the people they have wronged.

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Old 07-14-2022, 03:53 PM   #356 (permalink)
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It's the "both sides" mantra that people use to build false equivalencies.
Ah yes, I see it now. Sort of phonetically spelled. Got it. Thanks.
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Old 07-14-2022, 05:28 PM   #357 (permalink)
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We were talking about the wisdom of the creation of the state in the first place. Obviously I agree that now that they're there the solution has to allow for Israel to exist. But I don't think all land claims from the past are equal either.

There's a vast difference between pointing to the as of now unsettled issue presented by the creation of Israel where they displaced and persecuted the existing population, vs pointing to the historical examples of the Jews being exiled from Israel thousands of years ago.

That's the part of Israels creation that was bizarre and pretty much unheard of imo. But either way the victims of their current state still exist without any representation so yes I think their land claims are much stronger than the historical ones Israel used to justify the creation of that state.

Again that doesn't mean Israel can't exist but it's their sole responsibility to correct that situation and deal with the people they have wronged.
displacement and persecution is the norm

I think both sides have a claim to the territory, but, again, it's almost irrelevant because that's not the way borders are established anywhere in the world

it feels anti-semitic that we only care about this when it comes to Israel
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Old 07-14-2022, 06:20 PM   #358 (permalink)
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I dunno what you even mean by that's not how borders are established. I'm not even talking about redrawing any borders necessarily. I was just saying that the rationale for the creation of that state in that location was highly questionable and since then we have basically the aftermath of an on going humanitarian crisis that is a direct result of the state and its actions.

I think people care about Israel for a variety of reasons but to act like it's in any way just some normal situation that can be compared to the origins of any nation sounds like BS to me. Especially since Israel was created post WW2.
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Old 07-14-2022, 07:32 PM   #359 (permalink)
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displacement and persecution is the norm

I think both sides have a claim to the territory, but, again, it's almost irrelevant because that's not the way borders are established anywhere in the world

it feels anti-semitic that we only care about this when it comes to Israel
Ja you never see any anti-Zionists criticizing the genocide in Myanmar, american attempts to establish an ethnostate at home, the inherent violence of borders, victim-blaming propaganda, and outright fascist antisemitism. They only care about Israel's ethnostate because they hate Jews.
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Old 07-14-2022, 07:40 PM   #360 (permalink)
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displacement and persecution is the norm

I think both sides have a claim to the territory, but, again, it's almost irrelevant because that's not the way borders are established anywhere in the world

it feels anti-semitic that we only care about this when it comes to Israel
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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