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Old 09-12-2022, 01:48 PM   #481 (permalink)
jwb
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That doesn't clarify that he doesn't consider small business owners to be on the owner side of the worker/ owner distinction. If anything it seemed to be commenting on their political disposition but like I said the quote was too out of context to say for certain.

Like I've sort of allowed you to run me down this dumb meandering road where you pivot from one thing to another but my initial statement about some owners being lower on the class totem pole than some workers is true even if I allow your exception for plumbers or whatever. Let's cut right through the bul****. If the person in question owns a small business that employs a handful of people for a wage, is that a capitalist in your eyes even if their income from doing so might be less than that of a surgeon who is employed by a hospital or something? Can someone literally exploit workers for the surplus value created by their labor and not be a capitalist?
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Old 09-12-2022, 04:32 PM   #482 (permalink)
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it's the only thing written in the Manifesto on the middle class I think

it seems to dismiss them as counter-revolutionary proles

We could say Lebron James belongs to the same class as Abu, where as the guy that owns, uh, whatever team LeBron James plays for now, belongs to the bourgeois
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Old 09-12-2022, 04:39 PM   #483 (permalink)
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to be a capitalist, you'd need to be making a living off of capital as opposed to your labor

else you'd stretch that definition so hard as for it to be meaningless
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Old 09-12-2022, 05:35 PM   #484 (permalink)
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He ****ed me out of free booze tonight so he's in jeopardy of losing my vote.
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Old 09-12-2022, 11:10 PM   #485 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by elphenor View Post
it's the only thing written in the Manifesto on the middle class I think

it seems to dismiss them as counter-revolutionary proles
Uh no it says blah blah they are trying to protect their existence as a class and that's motivated by resisting their impending transfer to the proletariat. Which assumes that they currently aren't.
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Old 09-12-2022, 11:17 PM   #486 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by elphenor View Post
to be a capitalist, you'd need to be making a living off of capital as opposed to your labor

else you'd stretch that definition so hard as for it to be meaningless
hmm interesting just Google Marxist definition of a capitalist just out of curiosity.

"In Das Kapital (Capital in English), Marx argues that society is composed of two main classes: Capitalists are the business owners who organize the process of production and who own the means of production such as factories, tools, and raw materials, and who are also entitled to any and all profits."

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Old 09-13-2022, 09:06 AM   #487 (permalink)
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hmm interesting just Google Marxist definition of a capitalist just out of curiosity.

"In Das Kapital (Capital in English), Marx argues that society is composed of two main classes: Capitalists are the business owners who organize the process of production and who own the means of production such as factories, tools, and raw materials, and who are also entitled to any and all profits."

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Not that you asked me, but Das Kapital was written in the 1860s. Business owners then aren't business owners now.

I think Chomsky was citing a similar disconnect between what Adam Smith called "Trade" and what we call trade today.
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Old 09-13-2022, 09:56 AM   #488 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jwb View Post
hmm interesting just Google Marxist definition of a capitalist just out of curiosity.

"In Das Kapital (Capital in English), Marx argues that society is composed of two main classes: Capitalists are the business owners who organize the process of production and who own the means of production such as factories, tools, and raw materials, and who are also entitled to any and all profits."

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shopkeepers and artisans don't meaningfully own the means of production
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Old 09-13-2022, 02:51 PM   #489 (permalink)
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Who owns the means of production in a small business?
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Old 09-13-2022, 02:54 PM   #490 (permalink)
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Not that you asked me, but Das Kapital was written in the 1860s. Business owners then aren't business owners now.

I think Chomsky was citing a similar disconnect between what Adam Smith called "Trade" and what we call trade today.
Considering that we are literally debating the Marxist framework this doesn't feel like a very meaningful objection here. Also I think the owner/ worker dynamic of a small shop would've been roughly the same back then for the distinction we are talking about.
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