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Old 05-11-2021, 05:59 PM   #71 (permalink)
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even though I consider myself to be pretty much a Chomsky man politically

I'm postmodern-pilled af on morality

we go from "God is Dead" to realizing we just re-created God and called it "logic"
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Old 05-11-2021, 06:02 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Really? I hadn't noticed.

Edit: Maybe more of a phenomenological approach than postmodern.
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Old 05-11-2021, 06:08 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Sure. This is generally what we do as a society. For example we remove the freedom to very drunkenly drive because it causes more pain and suffering than we like.

Flipping it, I'm pretty sure that by applying a utilitarian comb to your laws, you could probably remove some laws that have no or even an overall adverse effect on happiness.
This is totally reasonable

but I'd argue there are cases where we wouldn't do this precisely because Freedom has inherent value

for instance, initiatives to reduce consumption of sugary drinks, would certainly make people happier in the long term

however liberals get mocked for it, because it's too cynically utilitarian
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Old 05-11-2021, 07:48 PM   #74 (permalink)
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This is totally reasonable

but I'd argue there are cases where we wouldn't do this precisely because Freedom has inherent value

for instance, initiatives to reduce consumption of sugary drinks, would certainly make people happier in the long term

however liberals get mocked for it, because it's too cynically utilitarian
And so the real purpose of stanning Bloomberg is revealed.
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Old 05-11-2021, 09:13 PM   #75 (permalink)
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I didn't ask you to prove it I asked if there's a reason why you prefer it... Are you saying there's no reason?
..?
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:52 AM   #76 (permalink)
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This is totally reasonable

but I'd argue there are cases where we wouldn't do this precisely because Freedom has inherent value

for instance, initiatives to reduce consumption of sugary drinks, would certainly make people happier in the long term

however liberals get mocked for it, because it's too cynically utilitarian
It's kinda interesting to see how this word freedom seems to have special meaning to americans (?). Is "loaded" the right word for it?

It seems you automatically apply a lot of virtue to the word. I think over here, the word doesn't quite have as much connotation and we're well aware that there's good freedom and bad freedom.
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:53 AM   #77 (permalink)
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yeah I just disagree

I think humans want to be free even when it will make them unhappy...

such as when some brilliant artist or scientist is really cooking, they might be quite miserable, but operating totally in the present
Neither of those are accurate, you're romanticising things.

Humans want to be free on a small personal level because it's obviously in their interest. On a societal level freedom is an exception in world history and people have been content with that until living became too miserable and they needed change.
As for acts of artistic and scientific creation, those can lead to happiness or at least be a coping mechanism, or a search for glory, feeling like that will bring happiness. Ideas of a Higher Calling or Inspiration are romantic nonsense
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I want to open a school for MB's lost boys and teach them basic coping skills and build up their self esteem and strengthen their emotional intelligence and teach them about vegetables and institutionalized racism and sexism and then they'll all build a bronze statue of me in my honor and my bronzed titties will forever be groped by the grubby paws of you ****ing whiny pathetic white boys.

Last edited by Marie Monday; 05-12-2021 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 05-12-2021, 02:46 AM   #78 (permalink)
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And so the real purpose of stanning Bloomberg is revealed.
it's very similar to his statement that the death penalty for drink driving would clearly lead to better outcomes/less harm...

The problem with these hypotheticals is not even that they're hypothetical it's that you're presuming that these policies would actually lead to better outcomes when there has been no substantiation of that claim

Like someone in 1920 could've said with the same amount of confidence "clearly banning alcohol will lead to better outcomes for society..." But that's not at all what happened. The outcomes were drastically worse. Cracking down on xyz can inadvertently lead to even bigger problems than the initial problem that caused the crackdown in the first place.
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Old 05-12-2021, 12:39 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Neither of those are accurate, you're romanticising things.

Humans want to be free on a small personal level because it's obviously in their interest. On a societal level freedom is an exception in world history and people have been content with that until living became too miserable and they needed change.
As for acts of artistic and scientific creation, those can lead to happiness or at least be a coping mechanism, or a search for glory, feeling like that will bring happiness. Ideas of a Higher Calling or Inspiration are romantic nonsense
over-simplifying the human condition

even if we constructed some theoretical Utopia I imagine people would still be unhappy
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