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Old 05-11-2021, 05:12 PM   #41 (permalink)
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"Let's assume raping children would maximize the happiness for all involved. Is it okay to rape children?"

The genius philosophical ponderings of the great intellectual that is elph.
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:14 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Ok but let's assume we can reduce freedom in exchange for happiness

should we always do this?
Sure. This is generally what we do as a society. For example we remove the freedom to very drunkenly drive because it causes more pain and suffering than we like.

Flipping it, I'm pretty sure that by applying a utilitarian comb to your laws, you could probably remove some laws that have no or even an overall adverse effect on happiness.
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:14 PM   #43 (permalink)
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no but seriously how does one prove the "goodness" of something like Self-Rule without appealing to a higher morality

the average person in China is not necessarily more unhappy than someone in the US
nobody said you could prove it

Utilitarian ethics can still be subjective. "Well being" and "suffering" can be subjective criteria.

You never answered my question. Why value democracy over tyranny or freedom over slavery? What is it specifically about these values that makes them self justified.

It seems like you're skipping back and forth from arguing that values are intrinsic to arguing that values are ultimately meaningless. You say democracy is self justified and then you say maybe people are happier in China. You haven't articulated what it is about democracy that makes you prefer it which is completely divorced from outcomes.
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:25 PM   #44 (permalink)
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whattt

let's assume you'd be happier born in China than in the US or UK

do we still know the reduced Freedom is bad?
yeah but it's overly simplistic to say utilitarian ethics is just about happiness. Just like any other ethical system, there can be competing values.

So you can seek to maximize "well being," of which happiness is might be only one metric. Autonomy could in and of itself be seen as a componant of well being, in which case you've only demonstrated that different metrics of well being can come into conflict, which doesn't actually undermine the general idea of maximizing utility.
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:26 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Cringe.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Old 05-11-2021, 05:27 PM   #46 (permalink)
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the meaning of "self-justified" is just that

I prefer it because I think it's morally right

it isn't really possible for me to prove that to an authoritarian, just gotta destroy them
I didn't ask you to prove it I asked if there's a reason why you prefer it... Are you saying there's no reason?
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:27 PM   #47 (permalink)
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yeah but it's overly simplistic to say utilitarian ethics is just about happiness. Just like any other ethical system, there can be competing values.

So you can seek to maximize "well being," of which happiness is might be only one metric. Autonomy could in and of itself be seen as a componant of well being, in which case you've only demonstrated that different metrics of well being can come into conflict, which doesn't actually undermine the general idea of maximizing utility.
What's the difference between well being and happiness and how would autonomy, or at least the illusion of it since you don't actually believe in autonomy, affect well being and not happiness?

I read it wrong nvm. I'm being retarded.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Last edited by Lucem Ferre; 05-11-2021 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:55 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I think there was a radio call in where Foccault told a rape victim that he had to conclude that her rapist was acting morally because it was an act of deviancy
Are you sure that wasn't Violent J?
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Old 05-11-2021, 06:02 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Really? I hadn't noticed.

Edit: Maybe more of a phenomenological approach than postmodern.
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Old 05-11-2021, 07:48 PM   #50 (permalink)
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This is totally reasonable

but I'd argue there are cases where we wouldn't do this precisely because Freedom has inherent value

for instance, initiatives to reduce consumption of sugary drinks, would certainly make people happier in the long term

however liberals get mocked for it, because it's too cynically utilitarian
And so the real purpose of stanning Bloomberg is revealed.
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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