ribbons

You sure you don't mean "Oh-puls and Ba-noh-nohs"? Or "Eye-puls and Ba-nye-nyes"?

Trollheart

If I had one, I would certainly use it. No, she has an array of soft toys (yeah, she's 40: so what?) --- her favourite being an alligator called Snappy and the other a lizard called Jub-Jub (guess where both THOSE names came from?) We almost lost Jub-Jub last week, when he fell from his usual perch on top of her electric fan, into the bin and ended up in the wheelie bin! Luckily after a short search for him the next day I reasoned out the only place he could be and, donning facemask and Marigolds, rescued him from the wheelie bin. Popped him in the washing machine and he was good as new. He's now standing at the side of her telly: much safer.

Ah, the adventures we get up to...

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

sopsych

Thanks for the research information, VEGANGELICA.

I do think I get the point of children's music - it's mostly to soothe and distract children. I personally don't think it would have worked on little me, or maybe it was tried and failed. Apparently I was very colicky. Plus, I'm very sensitive to voice quality, so I don't want a mediocre voice in my presence. That's one area where most prerecorded children's music excels - Bob Dylan won't be making children's songs anytime soon

jhjhj

I'm 'way older than most of you. When I was a child, I listened to the Little Golden Records that were 78rpm. The only really children's song I can remember had the words "I dropped my head/candy," but what I remember the most was a set of Sousa marches I listened to over and over and over. I loved Sousa as a child.

Wisdom, I suppose you would not have liked Dylan's version of "Froggie Went A-Courtin'."

VEGANGELICA

Yes, my son is very frank!

And yours gave such a cute analysis of Kermit's "Disco Frog!" I was especially amused that he said, "The ghost frog dances around too fast, he doesn't go with the beat" and "the ladies are funny with their hair." I like how he analyses the song from the perspective of little kids and in such detail. (Like your son, I didn't realize the little lights were supposed to be fireflies, either. I also thought they were pretty, and I liked the "tan" reeds and the way they screened the action at the end of the video.)

Your son's comments are a great example of how an 8-year-old distinguishes himself from "little kids." My child claims he will not even associate with "young" children of 6 anymore, which always amuses me, because to me *he* is still young (and he makes exceptions for the 6-year-olds who are "cool").

I'd like to hear these "Mom's Greatest Hits," Liz. Just wait until your kids become parents (if they do become parents): they'll probably be warbling little songs, too.

Yes, I've observed that the peer pressure is huge beginning in 1st grade, and preferences for particular songs/clothes rush through my child's class like wildfire. I think he knew of Katy Perry's "Hot n' Cold" song before I did, because many of the elementary school kids were singing it!

I think the peer pressure in elementary school results partly from fear of being teased if one isn't like the others, but mostly from a huge urge to "belong" and "be the same as" and be "cool," where "cool" means what teenagers or admired peers do. Anything "baby-like" is viewed with disdain, including the songs. Children's songs are repulsive to my child. They drive him wild. He likes tough, aggressive songs and no sing-songy voices.

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I'm glad you liked the Disco Frog!

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You're welcome. Children's songs interest me because their structure reflects not only what children usually can handle mentally or prefer emotionally from a developmental standpoint, but also what adults who make up the songs *think* children may like based on interacting with kids (or other adults, whom they copy) or *want* children to like.

I don't know how much you've been around babies, but if you talk in "baby talk" (use lots of inflection and raise your voice), they really *do* perk up and pay more attention to you. And they seem to like repetition much more than older people do. Probably the knowledge-hungry brains of very little children gravitate toward repetition because it is meaningful order in the chaos of sensory input, and the repetition cements what is learned.

I would expect most songs for children under 5, who are voraciously learning language, to be sing-songy and highly repetitive just like the song below, because such songs cater to their developmental stage. An article about international children's songs does say that children's songs globally often have short phrases and much repetition, although there are also many dissimilarities ("Discovering musical characteristics of children's songs from various parts of the world" by Shih-Yu Jade Pai (2009)).

Did anyone do the pat-a-cake song/game with little you? Even a colicky baby might like that!

Pat-a-cake song
This video shows a baby being socialized and amused by the adults teaching the song and singing it twice


Pat-a-Cake, pat-a-cake, baker's man - YouTube

^ The simplicity of such children's songs is beneath the level of communication of which most 1st graders are capable, so I think it makes sense that most 6 or 7 year olds would not gravitate toward (little) children's songs. A good example of this is Barney & Friends, which (according to Wikipedia) was designed for children age 1 - 8. (I always was surprised to see the older kids on the shows, because I expected an 8-year-old to be snorting disdainfully at the songs rather than singing along.)

Beyond just the musical characteristics of children's songs, I'm also interested in their subject matter. I've noticed (as probably everyone has) that many children's songs deal with animals, showing them in whimsical, anthropomorphic ways. (Ducktales is a great example.) To me this reflects a catering to children's innate fascination with other animals (moving beings), and also reflects a desire of adults to create a fictitious world in which people get along with other animals (rather than ignore, hurt, kill, eat them, etc.).

The subject matter of children's songs seems to show a desire among adults for a better, safer, kinder world than it really is in which humans and the rest of nature get along. Many of my favorite children's songs (when I was a child) involved animals: "The Inchworm Song," "Puff the Magic Dragon," "Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree," "Old MacDonald Had A Farm."

After age 7 or 8, kids' maturity is much more adult-like, and so it makes sense to me that children's songs no longer appeal to them very much. You may have just gone through the developmental stages of early childhood very fast, such that children's songs didn't appeal to you by the time you remember hearing them (after age 5)! Did you by any chance learn to read before age 3 or 4?

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There's also Bob Dylan's "This Old Man."


This old man Children's Song Bob Dylan - YouTube

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sopsych

So that's what the song is called. His voice seems to work for the subject matter.

I think the original reason I didn't like singing around me was fear of the people doing it.

I always thought "Pat-a-cake" was "Patty cake." I think it was used in my family. It's okay, but I think of it as more a game than a song.

Probably I learned to read early. I was well ahead by first grade. That's an interesting possible connection between reading and music.

Not impartial

VEGANGELICA

I've never thought that people could be scary when singing children's songs...unless they were dressed as clowns.

I did a little investigation to get to the bottom of this and learned that sometimes people call it "Pat-a-cake" and sometimes "Patty cake." Although there are some versions of "Patty cake/Pat-a-cake" that use actual notes, most seem to use sing-song voice inflections (accentuating the rise and fall of normal speech).

I think of it as a game *and* a song. It's rap!

Barney - "Pat-a-Cake (Barney Song)"
Primitive rapping for babies.


Pat-a-Cake (Barney Song) - YouTube


Young men playing "Patty Cake" (<-- See...they say "Patty Cake")
Not just for kids!


Patty Cake - YouTube

I thought I'd throw that possible connection out there since it would make sense that kids who learn to read early might tend to find children's songs to be too simple.

Also, I have a sample size of 2 (now 3!) to support this hypothesis: my child learned to read just before his 3rd birthday and never seemed to be a fan of children's songs (and now hates them), while I was behind most of my peers in reading proficiency...and I liked children's songs when I was a child.

When I was in 3rd or 4th grade, my school made me see a reading tutor (arrgghh! I resented having to go to a tutor). I felt I didn't need one. I'd read all the Berenstain Bears books and Bambi, and I just didn't think it would get much better than that, so why would I need to read more?? I always told them that I *could* read...I just preferred to do other things.

Probably not!

I should have written, "To me this may reflect a catering to children's innate fascination with other animals (moving beings), and also might reflect a desire of adults to create a fictitious world in which people get along with other animals (rather than ignore, hurt, kill, eat them, etc.)." It's a working hypothesis.

I suppose being taught "Mary had a little lamb" and then seeing people turn around and eat said lamb was too much for my 5-year-old self to swallow without eventually wondering about the disconnect. It just seemed as if everyone with these happy animal children's songs was encouraging me to care about animals, but then when I *did*, they told me not to!

I still wonder what's going on in human culture that causes adults to create and sing so many children's songs that anthropomorphise animals so that kids think about and like animals.

Now I'm reminded of one of my favorite children's songs when I was a child (besides "Mary had a little lamb"):

Oh Where, Oh Where Has My Little Dog Gone?
(I didn't like the "cutting" part of tail and ears when I was little, but I still liked the song and used to worry about the lost puppy)


Oh Where, Oh Where, Has My Little Dog Gone -Disney - YouTube

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Wayfarer

HOLY **** I REMEMBER THAT NOW

ribbons

He is frank and thinks Kermit sings like Frank-enstein. That was very insightful, actually! When I think about it, I do envision Frankenstein singing like a deeper-pitched Kermit. I think it’s amazing that your son knew how to read by his 3rd birthday, Erica! He has inherited his mother’s keen mind. And I find it very difficult to believe you ever needed a tutor to learn anything. Your school was obviously misguided on that score. As you stated, you simply preferred to read the books you loved – like The Berenstein Bears and Bambi – and to do other things, rather than to read only what they wanted you to. My children were not as quick to read fluently as your child; they were sort of pre-reading by preschool (age 4). I did read to them a lot when they were toddlers, and we watched VHS tapes and DVDs on phonics which helped them to grasp letter sounds and combinations. The phonics exposure particularly was good preparation for them.

Thanks, Erica, but I’ll spare you the torture. These songs do not go over well in our home. (Although at times I think – or like to think! -- they are still secretly comforted by them. Whenever my daughter or son has a bad day, I’ll start singing those stupid songs and they’ll get strangely quiet with a faraway look . . . for a full 15 seconds! )

Same situation here, Erica. Katy is very popular at my son’s school – even though he doesn’t care for her songs, the majority of the kids do. The boys think Katy and Taylor Swift and Beyonce are “hot”. My son likes Beyonce (an older woman! ). And he knew about Carly Rae Jepsen’s “Call Me Maybe” before I did – he says that if he hears the girls in his class sing that song one more time, he may go “crazy”.

All very true. And I think the repetition gives infants a sense of confidence in their own ability to “master” what is being learned.

Thanks for posting about this thesis, Erica. I found it online and will read it. I find it very intriguing because it’s interculturally based.

I never realized it was referred to as “Pat-a-Cake”, either! (always thought it was just “Patty Cake”) Speaking of colic, my daughter was colicky as a baby and I remember that every night around 9:00 p.m. she would start wailing and suffering terribly. This would last until around 3:00 a.m., and I was working at the time. I used to go to work feeling like a zombie (shades of your son’s comments, Erica). The only things that would soothe her would be either to (1) hold her with her back against my chest, so she would be facing outwards, with my arms and hands clasped underneath her bottom – and to walk around jiggling her that way, or (2) take her out for a ride in the car until she was lulled to sleep. But as soon as we shut the car off she would wake up and started crying again. I was so at the end of my tether at one point, I purchased a device called the Sleep-Tight Soother which was a vibration device attached to the springs of her crib that would rattle the crib – the aim was to make the crib vibrate akin to the motion of a car. The first night we put her the crib with the Sleep-Tight, she stayed in there for a little while and fell asleep but soon after she got “wise” to the device and woke up wailing. Then I read a book called “Healing Children Naturally” which stated that certain babies’ colicky symptoms might be due to drinking too much formula and effectively maintaining a protein/carbohydrate imbalance (resulting in painful constipation!). The book said the trick was to add a natural carbohydrate – in this case blackstrap molasses – to the formula to offset the protein excess. It worked like a charm. The teaspoon of blackstrap molasses had a pleasant caramelly taste when combined with the formula, and she took to it right away. “Colic” problem solved! Before my son's birth, I was worried he might have colic as well -- but fortunately he didn't. He usually slept through the night with few problems (a very easy baby luckily for me, and I still call him my "little Buddha". )

ribbons

You two and your antics! I couldn't guess where those names came from, so I looked them up and -- presto -- The Simpsons! Should have taken the hint from your avatar, TH! Well, I think it was very nice of you to retrieve and wash-up poor Jub-Jub for your sister. I'm glad he has a much safer pride of place now alongside the telly. "Facemask and Marigolds" -- ha!! (Why am I thinking now that this would make a good title for some band's CD? )