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Old 02-24-2019, 10:08 AM   #161 (permalink)
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1 Actually no, they supported the “a ship to gaza” initiative! Wow. They even higher in my book now.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-david-gilmour

2 that’s something a leftist would say. That’s something a right wing country-loving citizen would also say. If you just say the leftist part you distort the whole thing.

3.1 “Its food.” So you honestly think that the virgin-guy with his concert and pompeo and this guy Elliott Abrams (!!) just care for the nourishment of the people in venezuela?? Beats me.

3.2 Me I don’t think they are definitely going to invade, I think that they planned/hoped that a big part of the army would abandon their positions and that the government would collapse at the 1st stage.
It seems that didn’t happen so now they improvise. Try to create a havoc with the "aid" thing, provoke the other side and we ll see. Its not their ass on the line..

4.1 attack? : I remember things differently. I remember a mysterious orange revolution, I remember some years after that the (germany backed) boxer-guy-president, I remember Νuland, and the civil war in Ukraine, and the puppet porosenkο. I don’t emember russia invading.
And when things went bad, I remember the west (us, a great part of the eu etc) walking off and (as you also point out) letting ukranians live in their ruined country/failed state……

4.2 Of course I don’t trust the Russian government or its international policies. But they don’t affect my life even like 1% of how much American decisions are affecting it. And that was the case for the past 35 years, or the 7/8 of my life.

4.3 How d’you mean occupied? Ukraine was part of the czar empire and from then it went straight on to be part of the cccp. Of course many people wouldn’t like that etc etc but I don’t think you can call this occupied.

5.1 “ I didn't. Note the word "perhaps." “
I noted it. That’s why I said what I said.
In my opinion there should be absolutely no perhaps in this sentence…..

5.2 Totally agree that papa-bush didn’t make the same mess as his son.

5.3 “I opposed Papa Bush invading Iraq”
I m glad you did.

6 I didn’t click on anything this time, this took some time to write and this time I don’t got so I ll stop this conversation here (I hope but unfortunately dont expect to..)
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:24 PM   #162 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggywas View Post
[your last post]
1 Actually no, they supported the “a ship to gaza” initiative! Wow. They even higher in my book now.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-david-gilmour


Oh, okay. I don't particularly have a problem with that. Israelis say they're smuggling in weapons. I don't know. Kinda of the reverse of the situation in Venezuela on the left-right thing, with one important difference: while Maduro might personally face an existential threat, his country doesn't. Must be nice to be British (referring to them) and lived in a country that has de facto moat that's (I suppose) a few 10s of km wide. Btw, I understand Britain is partially responsible for this mess. When it comes to killing Arabs, compared to the British, Israelis must be bush leaguers. (The French and Russians (at least currently with the latter) are prolly worse.)

2 that’s something a leftist would say. That’s something a right wing country-loving citizen would also say. If you just say the leftist part you distort the whole thing.

Yep. Not easy for us relative moderates to walk the fence. (In most political sparing, I tend to lean a bit left—but then again, Trump kinda makes that easy.)

3.1 “Its food.” So you honestly think that the virgin-guy with his concert and pompeo and this guy Elliott Abrams (!!) just care for the nourishment of the people in venezuela?? Beats me.

Of course not! Okay, maybe Branson does in a way, though it's also good for his corporate image—and there might be some shoving going on with Trump—I'm not sure if they actually like each other. As for Abrams: isn't he that guy the CBC reported as being a bit of a bad-ass? But yeah, I can see it.

The thing is, if it feeds, and otherwise helps, a desperate people, it can be good. Again, Maduro has made his country so vulnerable. It's like a desperate woman about to prostitute herself to a sleaze for a pack of cigarettes. Toss her a pack and you foil the sleaze's plan. Why isn't Maduro providing for his people? Bad government? (Maybe very bad government?)

3.2 Me I don’t think they are definitely going to invade, I think that they planned/hoped that a big part of the army would abandon their positions and that the government would collapse at the 1st stage.
It seems that didn’t happen so now they improvise. Try to create a havoc with the "aid" thing, provoke the other side and we ll see. Its not their ass on the line..


Agreed, and it's kind of one of the few things I like about Trump: his reluctance to invade. Pity Obama didn't have a similar reluctance with Libya.

4.1 attack? : I remember things differently. I remember a mysterious orange revolution, I remember some years after that the (germany backed) boxer-guy-president, I remember Νuland, and the civil war in Ukraine, and the puppet porosenkο. I don’t emember russia invading.
And when things went bad, I remember the west (us, a great part of the eu etc) walking off and (as you also point out) letting ukranians live in their ruined country/failed state……


Admittedly I haven't read all the WP articles of post-1991 Ukrainian history (or much before it, for that matter). I just figure that a leader, such as Putin, an authoritarian, ex-KGB, who misses the USSR, is likely going to mess with his neighbours. I remember a president being poisoned, Russian soldiers sneaking across the border, annexation of Crimea, and trucks supposedly filled with aid, with likely no international monitoring, rolling across the border.

I figure in 1991 Ukraine, with its nukes, was the 3rd most powerful country on this planet. But it, as well as Belarus and I think Kazakhstan, gave them up for promises by Clinton and Yeltsin, including respecting present boundaries. I guess Putin showed how good those promises were worth.

If Ukraine is a failed state—I don't think it is—Lviv, for instance, is no Baghdad or Kabul (and even those might be healing)—or for that matter Caracas—Russia's likely causing it: a strong, intact, independent and/or pro-Westen neighbour the size, population, and abilities (even now) of Ukraine is not in their interests—at least those who support Putin.

4.2 Of course I don’t trust the Russian government or its international policies. But they don’t affect my life even like 1% of how much American decisions are affecting it. And that was the case for the past 35 years, or the 7/8 of my life.

Where do you live? I'm in Canada myself.

But yeah, US is the only "superpower."

I disagree with a fair amount of what Linda McQuaig says and writes, but she came out with a metaphor I love: "the cult of impotence." It's a good counter to the stupid metaphor our current PM's father had about Canada-US relations being like a mouse sleeping with an elephant. That and the 51st state. Yeah, whatever. We are over 1/10th the population, perhaps 1/10 the economy, and are physically larger. With the other OECD countries we are bigger, richer, and more populated.

Nor did a lot of capitalist or whatever the political left attacks the US for start in the US. Whatever Washington is deciding, many in other capitols are agreeing with it, and while you might cite it as a focal point, I dare say much of whatever country you live in—as is mine—is complicit in it with little or no pressure.

Let me guess, you aren't some subject toiling in some mine or labour camp to help pay for the massive tribute to your American overlord. I don't like that the DEA has an office in Vancouver. I don't like how a few 1000 Canadian soldiers are sent to Afghanistan—as much to demonstrate that were aren't a nation of sissies as portrayed by some in the media as anything else. I don't like how American ships will go through the NW passage without permission; but these are more irritants than anything. As for Trump's stupid trade policies: (a) many in Canada supported protectionism—particularly in the political left—it what they wanted, it what they get, (b) if you believe in national sovereignty the US is exercising theirs, (c) a lot of folks in his party don't like it either and are affecting it, and (d) I see the free market—something Trump might be less the expert of than he lets on—will correct things a bit. Why buy American dairy exports when the local seems cheaper and better quality?

4.3 How d’you mean occupied? Ukraine was part of the czar empire and from then it went straight on to be part of the cccp. Of course many people wouldn’t like that etc etc but I don’t think you can call this occupied.

Yeah, the Russian empire wasn't all that just either—the Chechens likely think so; and Ukraine was independent for a while around 1918—even the socialist part—I suppose things were in a bit of flux around that time. It got its independence again in 1991, remained so until 2014, and today is still mostly independent. Even now Israel hasn't (I think) annexed the Occupied Territories—they're just holding them pending negotiations—however that's being buggered up by settlers; but Russia? The pretense of protecting ethnic Russians died sooner than some butterflies.

5.1 “ I didn't. Note the word "perhaps." “
I noted it. That’s why I said what I said.
In my opinion there should be absolutely no perhaps in this sentence…..


Okay. But if you oppose Gulf War I, to be morally consistent, I figure you should oppose +95% of invasions of countries by anybody since, say, WWII. (I do.)

5.2 Totally agree that papa-bush didn’t make the same mess as his son.
Each generation of that family seems to get dumber, yet strangely more politically successful.
Maybe Jenna will become the first female president after she turns 50.

5.3 “I opposed Papa Bush invading Iraq”
I m glad you did.

Less to confess to the young'uns.

6 I didn’t click on anything this time, this took some time to write and this time I don’t got so I ll stop this conversation here (I hope but unfortunately dont expect to..)
I don't, and indeed I'm quite happy with your efforts before, and at this discussion.

Again, my thanks.
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