Frownland

It's more free jazz than bebop, I'm not sure if that's up your alley but if it is you should check out Ascension as well. Sun ship is sort of between the two so you might like that as well. Those two albums you listed are more in the bebop field.

Tl;dr you should listen to all of Coltranes discography.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Blarobbarg

Yeah, if you're jumping from Blue Train to Ascension you're gonna have some problems. Just go in order. All of his albums are fantastic, and then you'll work up slowly to his crazier stuff and won't get musical whiplash.

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Holerbot6000

Big difference between Blue Train and Interstellar Space. Blue Train is excellent but pretty straight bebop, whereas Interstellar Space is a lot more free jazz. Not as crazy as OM or Sun Ship or Ascension but still pretty out there. Just sayin'.

I've been listening to this new Sun Ra comp. Really excellent.

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Moss

yeah, I have to admit, I'm more of a strict Bebop guy at this point. Listened to A love Supreme again today as I took a walk and it sounded even better, just amazing. The musician side of me can understand him playing that 4 note phrase in all 12 keys in "acknowledgment". And in "Resolution" there is that amazing repeating phrase interspersed with the mesmerizing improv.

But I did listen to a bit of Temple and the free jazz aspect. In some ways I love it but I dont' really understand it and not sure how to close that gap. I don't think it's just noise but I like to understand what is going through an artists brain a little bit. There are entire sections that are just squeaking and squawking and I love it but at what point is it just a guy making noise in a sax? I compare it a bit to Sonic Youth (who I llove) and the dissonance they create is beautiful. Am I supposed to admire it as just being completely out there? Is it a guy pouring his soul into his instrument? Is there a musicality to it from a pure brainy music theory aspect?

Believe me, I know these are stupid questions but I'm trying to understand it a bit. Maybe I don't need to and just enjoy it for what it is. I don't know.

Holerbot6000

Well with Free Jazz, you have to accept that the spirit is flowing through these guys and they are just trying to give voice to it. Sometimes it's garbage and sometimes its sublime. Albert Ayler called it the Holy Ghost and that feeling of possession, when you are totally in the moment, is something any musician understands. I think when it's free, it's especially exciting because you are actually creating something out of the air. Still, as anyone who dabbles in 'Improvised' music knows, it can be a lot more fun to play than it is to listen to.

I think Coltrane in particular had a lot more structure to his free jazz. There was always a lot of thought behind everything he did. Remember that Ascension was recorded multiple times so it wasn't just improvised.

Someone else said to listen to Coltrane chronologically to help his later music make more sense. I think that is an excellent suggestion. I started with the Miles Davis quintet stuff and slowly moved on from there. One day I was listening to Ascension and I just got it. Oddly enough, I consider that very happy music - it rejuvenates me and makes me smile. What I love about jazz is that it's so rich with ideas, you can mine it forever.

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"I'm forever near a stereo saying, 'What the fook is this garbage?' And the answer is always the Red Hot Chili Peppers." - Nick Cave

Frownland

It really depends on the artist. Some throw musicality out the window and replace it with passion. A lot of free jazz artists utilize theoretical elements in their improvisations, Coltrane is the best example of this. While some might not be uber theory based, I think that new approaches and ideas (or revamping of ideas, as many free jazz artists do) is one thing to appreciate about the genre. I think free jazz is really the music of the soul and the thing that I love about it is how spiritual it can be, and a lot of artists agree based on tracks from artists like Coltrane, Ayler, Don Cherry, and Charles Gayle. There's no right way to appreciate music though, but the Holy Ghost (as Ayler called it) coming down through music as the musicians pluck it out of the air is what draws me to free jazz.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Holerbot6000

I like that I am so far sympatico (mostly) with Frownland, but I have to admit, he writes better paragraphs than I do.

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"I'm forever near a stereo saying, 'What the fook is this garbage?' And the answer is always the Red Hot Chili Peppers." - Nick Cave

Moss

You are both very helpful. I can appreciate pure "theory" music and pure "feel" music but was just not sure where free jazz lies on that spectrum. I guess it's kind of a mix where you have theory monsters just letting go and being free to play from the soul. That's how I like to picture Coltrane. But I do like the structure of a good line with elements of free improvisation which is why I currently gravitate towwards the classic Bebop. Will be scrolling through this thread for other albums to check out.

Chula Vista

Bright Size Life.

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Frownland

You should check out Sonny Sharrock's Ask the Ages. It's free jazz but also very accessible

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.