The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (house, single, bling, income)

[hookers with machineguns]

What exactly are the pro's of assisted suicide being supported by law? I'm serious, I want to know.

I obtained these statistics from an abortions statistics website (so take it with a grain of salt), but very interesting nontheless:

Women from 27 nations reported the following reasons for seeking an induced abortion:

* 25.5% – Want to postpone childbearing
* 21.3% – Cannot afford a baby
* 14.1% – Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
* 12.2% – Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
* 10.8% – Having a child will disrupt education or job
* 7.9% – Want no (more) children
* 3.3% – Risk to fetal health
* 2.8% – Risk to mother's health
* 2.1% – Rape, incest, other

This was a big blow to me, because I always assumed the latter 3 were the most common reasons, but in reality they seem to be the least frequent. I am pro-choice, in that, I don't think law should forbid it. But based on these statistics, I think there has to be a global initiative to discourage these particular kinds of abortions. There needs to be even greater and stricter regulations with abortion clinic practices, or maybe there is a way to discourage doctors from performing these kinds of operations.

[adidasss]

Originally Posted by franscar

24 weeks after conception. As recommended by the medical profession, who know an awful lot more about foetal development than I do.

that's debatable....to me, it begins after conception.

Originally Posted by franscar

I was well aware of that, hence the incredulous double standard of you accusing me of having a "bullsh1t" excuse for seeking a termination.

your logic baffles me, how does me saying that abortion should be legal so that people can do it in safe enviroments , and that not having a child because you're not "ready" is a bullshit reason pose a double standard?
those are two separate things!

Originally Posted by franscar

Since when did a woman have to go through a potentially difficult surgical procedure to have her hair cut? Yet again displaying a total lack of understanding of the physicalities involved, or attempting to belittle the event itself, either way is irresponsible and downright foolhardy.

so the procedure is psychologically difficult because it's a surgical procedure? that's the only reason why it's difficult?! ok.....for you and your girlfriend maybe, i was thinking of other reasons for it being a difficult decision...

Originally Posted by franscar

Same double standard written in a different sentence. Congrats. You spend a rant telling me that a decision I have made in my life is bullsh1t, and then in the next post claim not to be dictating? What was that then, your impression of friendly advice?.

it's an opinion, how the fuck does an opinion on a matter become a dictation? am i holding a gun to anyone's head?! you keep skipping the parts where i say that everyone has a right to decide for themselves, what exactly am i dictating by saying that? or by disagreeing with you?

Originally Posted by franscar

It was bought up before by someone else and you ignored it, so I'll bring it up here again. Here's the facts for you. There is a disproportionate amount of unwanted pregnancies in low income, ill-educated households. These are households with the least access to contraception, and the least awareness of contraceptive methods. They are more likely to be the victims of and perpetrators of crime, and are more likely to experience mental and physical health problems and higher than average cases of depression, suicide, infant mortality and mortality in general. Just because YOU were educated enough to know the risks, doesn't mean everybody else is. You will not stop people from having sex, regardless of what your morals say. And as for those who choose to abort despite knowing the risks, tell me why it is reckless. They are not taking valuable resources away from the health services as the process is much more often than not undertake in private hospitals. They are not producing a burden on the state in the form of an unwanted child, they are only reckless because you decide it, with nothing more than the weight of your own mind behind it.

so now you're putting a price tag on a human life?valuable recourse from health servises? a burden on the state? that's what human life is to you?
it's cheaper and easier to just get rid of the baby ha? most definetly...
as for the social situation of many people, you're saying that they're not educated on the various methods of contraception but somehow they are aware of abortion?then i think they should be more educated on contraceptive methods, that should be done by the goverment, while still enabling them to have an abortion, but by no means should they promote abortion as a method of resolving the problems of the respective social group.
my comment on reckless behaviour was aimed at the people who can afford a baby and can make ends meet, but still decide to abort. because it seems to me like you regard abortion simply as another contraceptive method. when in fact, it's not, it's much more than that. depending on what you consider the human embrio to be.

Originally Posted by franscar

Has nothing to do with the topic in hand. You want to start a thread on bad parenting, do it somewhere else.

Originally Posted by franscar

No, it isn't making sense. What is the point of bringing more and more children into this already overcrowded world when the parents by their own admission are not capable of bringing them up correctly? There's already plenty of kids commiting suicide because of depression, alienation, poor upbringings and a lack of emotional connection with the people around them.

I can't understand how you can give so little weight to the thoughts and needs of the two people with the biggest responsibility to any child born into this world. And on your point about money, well lets put it like this. You never see your parents because they are always working to scrape together enough money to feed you, clothe you, and bring you toys. You think you'd be happy without that relationship?

i apologize, i took the comments above to be directly related to parenting, or future parenting and i interpreted it that you think those kids would be better off never to be born. how silly of me.....i really must stop smoking pot....

Originally Posted by franscar

No I didn't. You're twisting what I actually said to fit your agenda.

i don't believe i am.

Originally Posted by franscar

And there's the agenda. Seeing as it's nothing to do with what I actually wrote it isn't worthy of further comment.

agenda? yes, let's take one thing i said in passing and make it my agenda and thus belittle my views.....clever use of debating tactics, but i'm affraid it wont work on me....

[adidasss]

Originally Posted by hookers with machineguns

What exactly are the pro's of assisted suicide being supported by law? I'm serious, I want to know.

I obtained these statistics from an abortions statistics website (so take it with a grain of salt), but very interesting nontheless:

Women from 27 nations reported the following reasons for seeking an induced abortion:

* 25.5% – Want to postpone childbearing
* 21.3% – Cannot afford a baby
* 14.1% – Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
* 12.2% – Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
* 10.8% – Having a child will disrupt education or job
* 7.9% – Want no (more) children
* 3.3% – Risk to fetal health
* 2.8% – Risk to mother's health
* 2.1% – Rape, incest, other

This was a big blow to me, because I always assumed the latter 3 were the most common reasons, but in reality they seem to be the least frequent. I am pro-choice, in that, I don't think law should forbid it. But based on these statistics, I think there has to be a global initiative to discourage these particular kinds of abortions. There needs to be even greater and stricter regulations with abortion clinic practices, or maybe there is a way to discourage doctors from performing these kinds of operations.

this is what i mean by saying that people are starting to consider abortion simply as another method of contraception.....and why i believe such behaviour to be reckless.....

[Scarlett O'Hara]

Ok, I'd like to say, that women really are the ones who have the opinions in this. But it seems to be becoming the mans, for example the retired independent senator Brain Harradine who made the abortion drug RU-486 illegal in Australia. Why does everyone else but the women in the situation of prolife and prochoice get the main voice?

It definitely comes down to the individual woman. If mothers have the rights over children being born, then shouldn't they be freely allowed to make the decision to whether they will have the child. This is just being non-biased.

It's such a tricky situation, what with woman being raped by dirty pieces of scum, what can they do if abortion is illegal? Do you want your 11 year-old daughters having children because they have no choice? What about the ill-equiped mothers out there, poor as hell? What about the drug addicts getting pregnant? Of course we have to think about the children, but we also have to consider the situation they are going to born into, maybe death would be better than being beat up, abused, or forced into prostitution?

Of course there is the other side of the story, women choosing to have abortions because they "arn't at that stage", career is more important. That makes the infertile women angry because they can't have any choices.

I havn't come up with a one-sided opinion, but I don't think this should be treated lightly. I don't see there ever being a solution to this problem.

[Cheese]

Coming from an almost athiest background, I'd have to say it's up to the individual so I can't say I'm against it for religious reasons.


Meh, I don't really care either way.

[jibber]

Abortion, that's definitely a tricky subject. I can't say that I'd agree with it, but hey, if it was me in that situation, maybe i'd feel differently. So many people have said "If they chose to have unprotected sex, they should suck it up and deal with the consequences." Its not as easy as that. Condoms are only 97% effective, the pill is 99%, sometimes, even with condoms AND the pill in effect, a pregnancy can happen. People can do everything right, and still be put into the most frightening situations possible. The bottom line for me is, if a woman chooses that that's what she wants to do, then she should have the right to do it. Adidass, i hear what you're saying, i understand all the points you're trying to make, but honestly, it's not you're place to tell someone what they should or should not be able to do with their bodies and their lives. The medical world unianimously agrees that a baby's life doesn't really begin until 24 weeks into the pregnancy. Until then, once again, there is a unianimous agreement in the medical world that that fetus is an extension of that woman's body, so no-one but her should be given any choice in the matter.

As for assisted suicide, that pertains to patients who are medically ill. some of these responses on the topic make it sound like you think its just some depressed kid who asks his buddy to shoot him. no, it's someone who's in so much pain that they would rather end their life than continue on living like that. anyone who's actually seen a family member or a loved one go through pain like that would never be able to say that you should deny them the right to choose what they want to do with their lives.

[Spikey]

I watched "Million dollar baby" last night........It's up to the person not to the people that have no clue as to what she's feeling. The family should also have a say but it's up to her.

[jibber]

Originally Posted by Spikey

I watched "Million dollar baby" last night........It's up to the person not to the people that have no clue as to what she's feeling. The family should also have a say but it's up to her.

Why should the family have a say? they had nothing to do with the events that put her in that situation, so what right do they have to try to influence her decision. I'd say that the ONLY other person who should have a say is her partner, but ultimately the decision should rest entirely with that woman.

[Spikey]

True but I have a very close family and they know what's better for me than some tw*t who knocked me up..

[jibber]

Originally Posted by Spikey

True but I have a very close family and they know what's better for me than some tw*t who knocked me up..

no, but the point is, they DON'T know whats better for you when it comes to a decision like that. If you want their advice then that's a good thing, but if you end up in a situation like that, the decision should be yours and only yours. If you come to a decidion based on what your family wants, you'd be resentful towards them for the rest of your life. Plus, if you decide to have sex, you should be adult enough to be able to make such an important decision on your own, and you should know enough about yourself to be able to make that decision entirely on your own.