The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (house, solo, quote, Inci)

[Rabid Sea Turtles]

1. I disagree that it takes an "ass kicking" to solve anything
2. Even if it does, it doesn't take weapons that could literally destroy the earth to woop someones ass.

[Raine]

Originally Posted by Rabid Sea Turtles

1. I disagree that it takes an "ass kicking" to solve anything
2. Even if it does, it doesn't take weapons that could literally destroy the earth to woop someones ass.

Well we'll just have to wait and find out now won't we.

Although we've pretty much already destroyed the earth several times over, I'd imagine.
But hey, we can try for overkill

[cardboard adolescent]

You won't be laughing when you're nothing but a shadow on the wall.

But at least you'll have stopped spouting mindless garbage.

[Barnard17]

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

2. Isreal is doing what they have to to survive. You all seem to think that if they didn't fight anyone, they'd be left alone. The very hour the countries constitution was signed, Egypt and several other Middle Eastern states declared war. Why? Because they are taught to hate Jewish people. As long as Isreal exist, there will be conflict.

Israel is fighting an offensive war, not a defensive one. They do not hate the Jewish people, they hate that the presence of Israel means that millions of Palestinians are being displaced, thousands are kept prisoner, Israel ignores country boundaries in it's opression of Palestine, Israel practically ignores Human Rights etc etc ...

If Israel stopped acting like morons, there would be no need for conflict.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

But you all seem to forget that EVERY DAY there is suicide bombers from these radical extremist who BLOW THEMSELVES UP in crowded streets, cafe's, nightclubs, and other populated areas killing sometimes 1 and sometimes 10's or hundreds of people.

Crap, I was forgetting that EVERY LEBANESE PERSON IS A FUTURE SUICIDE BOMBER. We should kill them all, and the tourists who are there, to eliminate the threat. I mean seriously, those 400 lebanese civillian casualties? They weren't innocent. They come from the same country as Hezbullah, they're obviously guilty. They were practically WEARING the bomb jackets already as they fleed the terror as refugees, or sat in their apartments whilst we bomb it. I could see the terrorism in their eyes, from my plane.

For the record, I'm being disproportionate. Israel is dealing with Lebanon and Palestine the same way that the Nazis dealt with the Jews. Ghettoisation, disproportionate retribution and oppression.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Telling Isreal to be pinpoint accurate is SHEER hypocrisy and I'm shocked at many of you.

Excuse me? How is it hypocritical of me to tell Israel to not target civillian locations with shells and patriot missiles?

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

4. This is not to say that Isreal should fight at the level of these terrorist, but where the hell are your criticism of them? I haven't found one.

Start a thread about it so that we can complain about the terrorists then. If you hadn't noticed this thread is about Israels actions against Lebanon, so specific acts of unrelated terrorist groups from the area understandable don't pop up much.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

5. The U.S. being Isreal's bitch? What? Are you daft? The US has played a very small role in Isreal's politics over the last 5-6 years. Ariel Sharon was very against outside involvement. He saw this struggle as the Jewish people against those that hate them. He didn't come crawling to the US as some of you make it sound.

Ariel Sharon didn't complain about $15mil US tax dollars daily. If it weren't for the US, Israel would be bankrupt.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

6. DontRunMeOver, your analogy has me confused. It should be when the man in the red shirt blows up the shopping center killing 20 children and their mothers,

This is, of course, after the man in the red shirt has lived a life that is controlled by Israelis. After his brother and mother were killed during an Israeli incursion, after his sister died in the Ambulance on Palestinian land because an illegally placed Israeli checkpoint wouldn't let it pass, so rather than a 5minute journey to hospital it had to take a 1hour journey. After his friend was stopped at a checkpoint and the Israeli troops there took him aside and broke his arm for no good reason other than the fact that IDF conscripts are racist. After he has to spend 4 hours waiting at an illegal checkpoint every morning on the way to work, and 4 hours on the way back. After the village where relatives lives has it's water supply cut off because it's being monopolised by an illegal Israeli village. The list goes on. You can't drive someone to suicide bomb purely out of racism and a belief that they'll go to heaven. They need to have lived life opressed. Suicide bombing is an act of desperation.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Isreal responds by acting on the best information possible killing the man in the red shirts co-conspiritors and the occasional accidental civilian.

Ah yes, the whole "use your mobile meet a missile" approach. It kills more than just the occasional civillian. Not to mention the fact that Israel regularly sends armies to occupy cities and towns in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, imposing illegal curfews and turfing residents out their homes and places of work so that they can turn it into military establishments. Do the UK do the same in Northern Ireland?

[Raine]

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

You won't be laughing when you're nothing but a shadow on the wall.

But at least you'll have stopped spouting mindless garbage.

I don't fear death. It's inevitable.

But if it takes me dying and then several other people of the world, then so be it.
If enough people die, maybe someone'll actually take some iniative and actually start disarming these weaponsa nd tossing them for good.
It's not enough for Bush to go on a campaign about nuclear warheads.
He wants to do something, disarm his own weapons broadcast that tot he world, and then start making peace talks. although i doubt if he gave a peace talk it would be effective, especially since his vocab revolves around phrases such as "uh" and "um"

[Stone Magnet]

Originally Posted by Raine

I don't fear death. It's inevitable.

Death is inevitable - murder isn't.

[Raine]

Originally Posted by Stone Magnet

Death is inevitable - murder isn't.

I dunno.

I guess in some instances murder really is justified and maybe even necessary for the survival of others.
I believe everyone has a choice in life. But what if the death (by murder) of one could perhaps lead to the perseverance of others?

[riseagainstrocks]

Originally Posted by Fal

Israel is fighting an offensive war, not a defensive one. They do not hate the Jewish people, they hate that the presence of Israel means that millions of Palestinians are being displaced, thousands are kept prisoner, Israel ignores country boundaries in it's opression of Palestine, Israel practically ignores Human Rights etc etc ...

Let's not forget who struck first. As I said before (and many of you seem to be missing this) Isreal has been fighting for its very survival as a country since his founding. Isreal was wrong (in international law) to occupy parts of Lebanon and Palestine. But what the hell were they supposed to do? Just wait till everyone living on the out edge of Isreal is killed by missle attacks?

Originally Posted by Fal

If Israel stopped acting like morons, there would be no need for conflict.

I think you mean if Isreal didn't exist the Arab world wouldn't feel the need to kill people simply based on their faith.

Originally Posted by Fal

Crap, I was forgetting that EVERY LEBANESE PERSON IS A FUTURE SUICIDE BOMBER. We should kill them all, and the tourists who are there, to eliminate the threat. I mean seriously, those 400 lebanese civillian casualties? They weren't innocent. They come from the same country as Hezbullah, they're obviously guilty. They were practically WEARING the bomb jackets already as they fleed the terror as refugees, or sat in their apartments whilst we bomb it. I could see the terrorism in their eyes, from my plane.

You know that's not what I meant. I have already said that killing innocents it's not acceptable and when it does happen it is regretable. But you can't deny that the culure these children are brought up in is one that praises suicide bombers, compares them to saints. Pictures of these men are plastered all over the place, with platitudes and praises scrawled all over them. I am NOT saying kill them all to prevent the possibility, I'm simply throw out the fact that the odds that they will commit an act of terrorism is high.

Originally Posted by Fal

For the record, I'm being disproportionate. Israel is dealing with Lebanon and Palestine the same way that the Nazis dealt with the Jews. Ghettoisation, disproportionate retribution and oppression.

Bull****. If anything it's the Palestinians and Lebanese who share Hitler's idealogy. Their clerics condemn the very fact that Isreal exists. They issue fatwa's and jihad's on the citizens of Isreal, THEY WISH TO COMMIT GENOCIDE. And disproportionate retribution? Maybe over the last few weeks. But you have to realize. Every time 1 Isreali dies it's the equivanlent of 45 Americans dying (the ratio is near there, maybe higher). It's a big deal. If 45 British citizens were killed by terrorist you'd want revenge as well correct? And it's not like Isreal is saying "Hey, let's bomb the hospital" They are legitimatly seeking targets, quite unlike the religious radicals.

Originally Posted by Fal

Excuse me? How is it hypocritical of me to tell Israel to not target civillian locations with shells and patriot missiles?

By not condeming the actions of the Terrorist groups (Hezbollah) that started this maybe?

Originally Posted by Fal

Start a thread about it so that we can complain about the terrorists then. If you hadn't noticed this thread is about Israels actions against Lebanon, so specific acts of unrelated terrorist groups from the area understandable don't pop up much.

The start of the action was against the group Hezbollah, a state sponsered terrorist organization. They might have been freedom fighters at one point. But freedom fighters don't tend to lauch missles at civilian homes and croweded market places do they?

Originally Posted by Fal

Ariel Sharon didn't complain about $15mil US tax dollars daily. If it weren't for the US, Israel would be bankrupt.

I can't comment on this because I did not know this.

Originally Posted by Fal

This is, of course, after the man in the red shirt has lived a life that is controlled by Israelis. After his brother and mother were killed during an Israeli incursion, after his sister died in the Ambulance on Palestinian land because an illegally placed Israeli checkpoint wouldn't let it pass, so rather than a 5minute journey to hospital it had to take a 1hour journey. After his friend was stopped at a checkpoint and the Israeli troops there took him aside and broke his arm for no good reason other than the fact that IDF conscripts are racist. After he has to spend 4 hours waiting at an illegal checkpoint every morning on the way to work, and 4 hours on the way back. After the village where relatives lives has it's water supply cut off because it's being monopolised by an illegal Israeli village. The list goes on. You can't drive someone to suicide bomb purely out of racism and a belief that they'll go to heaven. They need to have lived life opressed. Suicide bombing is an act of desperation.

The man in the red shirt lives his life under control (if he does at all) is because his compatriots decided that rather than talk, they'd rather throw stones, or launch RPG's, or fire AK-47s or blow themselves up. I'm not saying Isreal has not committed crimes. I'm sure they have. And the international community had better look into them and deal with it as neccessary, but I will side with the Isreali's 99.9% of the time. Why? Because they DID NOT start these conflicts.

Originally Posted by Fal

Ah yes, the whole "use your mobile meet a missile" approach. It kills more than just the occasional civillian. Not to mention the fact that Israel regularly sends armies to occupy cities and towns in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, imposing illegal curfews and turfing residents out their homes and places of work so that they can turn it into military establishments. Do the UK do the same in Northern Ireland?

Again, when your people (Isreal) are being blown up in a shopping mall, reaction is needed. These occupations are not pre-emptive or unsolicited. They are reactions to the racial hatred of their neighbors.

[Raine]

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Let's not forget who struck first. As I said before (and many of you seem to be missing this) Isreal has been fighting for its very survival as a country since his founding. Isreal was wrong (in international law) to occupy parts of Lebanon and Palestine. But what the hell were they supposed to do? Just wait till everyone living on the out edge of Isreal is killed by missle attacks?

And you'd think after fighting for its existance since its founding Israel would've learned that there are better ways to handle this situation. or maybe someone'll stop to think that maybe talking'll be safer.

Originally Posted by rageagainstrocks

I think you mean if Isreal didn't exist the Arab world wouldn't feel the need to kill people simply based on their faith.

You make it sound like Palestine and Lebanon haven't had citizens killed because of their faith. People all over the world are killed because of their faith. Look at the Ku Klux Klan in america. Look at bosnia. These things happen. Because people are prejudiced. People are killed for the color of their skin. Look at Darfur in Sudan.

Originally Posted by rageagainstrocks

I have already said that killing innocents it's not acceptable and when it does happen it is regretable. But you can't deny that the culure these children are brought up in is one that praises suicide bombers, compares them to saints. Pictures of these men are plastered all over the place, with platitudes and praises scrawled all over them. I am NOT saying kill them all to prevent the possibility, I'm simply throw out the fact that the odds that they will commit an act of terrorism is high.

And I guess you should throw in the fact that the nations in question aren't too developed as many others.
And you forget that these people(s) have been fighting for years long before Bush decided to go public with his intention on the crisis in the Middle East and his war on terrorism. I'll bet money that if 9/11 never happened this discussion wouldn't have lasted this long or gotten this far.
And the fact is these nations do not praise terrorists as saint. And children are not raised to believe that terrorists are saints. these people may think highly of the person/group that seems dedicated to avenging people they have lost or that they think can help make their life better. But their life isn't getting any better and the number of causlaities from both sides keeps going up and the process keeps on going. It's perpetual.
And you seem not to understand the loyalty these poeple haveton their faith. These people are willing to die for their beliefs. And in the process they want to take out as many of the enemy as they possibly can. And I understand the idea behind it. If you're gonna die, why not take your enemy with you? And sometimes I agree with that idea, but in this case I don't. You're stealing the life of someone's mom, someone's daughter, someone's dad, someone's brother, someone's sister. And all you're really ding is just adding more fuel to the fire.
But don't for once say that this is part of the culture. It is not part of the culture. You're in a do or die situation and possibly your friend or family member is gonna die. How the hell do you respond to that.
You seem to be rather civilized, so I'll ask you: someone kills someone you love or care deeply about, you're gonna want to punish that person or see that they are punished right? But it's never enough because no amount of punishment will bring that person back. No it's not culture, it's one of the imerfections of being human. You lose something, you're gonna want it back. You can't get it back, replace it. You lose your dad, the person that is repsonsible just got lost.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Bull****. If anything it's the Palestinians and Lebanese who share Hitler's idealogy. Their clerics condemn the very fact that Isreal exists. They issue fatwa's and jihad's on the citizens of Isreal, THEY WISH TO COMMIT GENOCIDE. And disproportionate retribution? Maybe over the last few weeks. But you have to realize. Every time 1 Isreali dies it's the equivanlent of 45 Americans dying (the ratio is near there, maybe higher). It's a big deal. If 45 British citizens were killed by terrorist you'd want revenge as well correct? And it's not like Isreal is saying "Hey, let's bomb the hospital" They are legitimatly seeking targets, quite unlike the religious radicals.

Hitler wanted a perfect world with the perfect race of people and only the perfect race of people. This lead to genocide.
Denying a nation's existance or refusing to believe or acknowledge it's existence isn't genocide it's avoidance (and possibly ignorance). Genocide is what's happening in Darfur.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

By not condeming the actions of the Terrorist groups (Hezbollah) that started this maybe?

No. Hezbollah's goal is to keep Israelis out of Lebanon. Israelis crossed the border.
Same thing as if you have an intruder in your house, you're gonna want to keep them out by any means necessary or try to prevent something like that in the future. Granted I don't agree with all of their methods but the concept remains the same.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

The start of the action was against the group Hezbollah, a state sponsered terrorist organization. They might have been freedom fighters at one point. But freedom fighters don't tend to lauch missles at civilian homes and croweded market places do they?

And how do you know that these civilian homes weren't a front for some threat against lebanon?
And if it wasn't then are you gonna have a moment of silence or something for the lives lost? I mean really you make it sound like you really care. And in fact, you may be curious and want to know more about it, but it doesn't really effect you and you're probably not doing anything to prevent it in the future now are you?

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

The man in the red shirt lives his life under control (if he does at all) is because his compatriots decided that rather than talk, they'd rather throw stones, or launch RPG's, or fire AK-47s or blow themselves up. I'm not saying Isreal has not committed crimes. I'm sure they have. And the international community had better look into them and deal with it as neccessary, but I will side with the Isreali's 99.9% of the time. Why? Because they DID NOT start these conflicts.

Even if they didn't start these conflicts they're a part of them and should make every effort as possible to put an end to them.
The US always sides with Israel and the US has enough military power to send ak-47s to Israel and I am certain that at this moment there is an Israeli armed with an AK-47.
So is Israel now just as guilty as Lebanon.
And is the US just as guilty for being powerful enough to send troops to Israel and weapons but not taking an even bigger step to help get this under control? If you're gonna side with Israel and go as far as to give them weapons, why not go as far as to help them fight the battle as well?
Now what happens? Tomorrow this thread will go on, Bush will still be an a$$, Hezbollah will still be a group and life will go on.
Nothing different is being done to change the way things are.

And really I feel a great deal of sympathy for Israel and Lebanon I really do. I can't imagine all the people mourning the loss of a family member or friend right now. And I shudder to think of those same people preparing themselves to dit all again tomorrow, but I can only feel so much sympathy.
I have no one i'm really close to in either nation or rather no one that is of grave importance in my life so I can only muster but so much emotion on the topic.
But I think that if the US really wanted to side with Israel, they could do more than they're doing now to help alleviate some of the problems/tensions between the two nations.
But at the same time I feel as though that the US has intervened enough and look at what it's lead to? Lebanon has weapons, israel has weapons and people are still dying.
I think that at some point someone at the UN should shut Bush up and take this matter to a different level and maybe people we still start to take a different approach to this.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Again, when your people (Isreal) are being blown up in a shopping mall, reaction is needed. These occupations are not pre-emptive or unsolicited. They are reactions to the racial hatred of their neighbors.

Someone makes a racial slur/comment towards you, do you kill them? Most likely not. Part of it has to do with where you live.
The Middle East is something of a rather religious part of the world and since many of the countries are not as developed as say England or the US, people tend to die for these sorts of things. Whether it's because of lack of education or poverty people tend to kill themselves first and take the enemy with them and the process continues.

[Barnard17]

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Let's not forget who struck first. As I said before (and many of you seem to be missing this) Isreal has been fighting for its very survival as a country since his founding. Isreal was wrong (in international law) to occupy parts of Lebanon and Palestine. But what the hell were they supposed to do? Just wait till everyone living on the out edge of Isreal is killed by missle attacks?

Palestine pre-Israel was plagued with Zionist Terrorists constantly kicking up trouble with the Palestinians living in the area. After Israel was founded, the Israeli Government treated Palestinians like second rate citizens and set about forcing them out of their homes. You expect Palestinians and their neighbours to just sit back and watch? What if a massive bunch of Native Americans laid claim to florida and the UN condoned it, they move there and redrew the border lines so that they had half of Florida, and set about evicting the everyday Americans that lived there. You expect the US to sit back and say "well we did destroy their culture, they deserve somewhere they can be safe", or do you expect people to kick up a fuss?

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

I think you mean if Isreal didn't exist the Arab world wouldn't feel the need to kill people simply based on their faith.

Yes, because of course people blow themselves up based purely on racism. It's wondrous - all Arabs hate Jews so much it makes them want to kill themselves.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

But you can't deny that the culure these children are brought up in is one that praises suicide bombers, compares them to saints. Pictures of these men are plastered all over the place, with platitudes and praises scrawled all over them. I am NOT saying kill them all to prevent the possibility, I'm simply throw out the fact that the odds that they will commit an act of terrorism is high.

The suicide bombers, to Palestinians, are Freedom Fighters. They're kicking against the opressors because the Palestinian government is kept too weak by Israel to maintain a standing army. That doesn't mean any Abdul Come Lately will sit up and blow himself up and some Israelis with him. Sure, the chances are higher than in America but then again America has a standing army, political clout and a distinct lack of opression. The chances of a Palestinian you meet on the street turning out to be a suicide bomber are still infinitessimally low.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Their clerics condemn the very fact that Isreal exists.

I do too. Israel does nothing other than cause trouble.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

They issue fatwa's and jihad's on the citizens of Isreal,

They issue them on the Israeli Government, the problem is it's pretty much pointless trying to attack the IDF or a Governmental building because the best a suicide bomber or militants would be able to do is take out a check point before they get shot to pieces.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

THEY WISH TO COMMIT GENOCIDE.

They wish for the state of Israeli to stick within it's own borders and to let them get on with their own lives. And wishing to commit genocide is very different to actually doing it (unless you plan to become thought police). On the other hand, Israel does commit Genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_a...n_the_massacre

"... Israel could have prevented the massacre." "... Israeli soldiers fought along the Phalangists and shelled the camp to help them overcome the Palestinian resistance." "... Israeli solders driving bulldozers into inhabited houses inside the camp."

http://www.themaz.net/ss/sabra_shatila.html

"he heard the Israelis calling people out via loudspeakers: “Give up your weapons, you and your family will be spared.” Hamad moved up the slope and saw that the murderers were lining up the people who had come out, and then shooting them."

Yay Israel!

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

And disproportionate retribution? Maybe over the last few weeks. But you have to realize. Every time 1 Isreali dies it's the equivanlent of 45 Americans dying (the ratio is near there, maybe higher). It's a big deal.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

"121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 754 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000."
"1,084 Israelis and 4,091 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000."
"7,633 Israelis and 30,511 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000."

Israel — Population: 6,276,883
The population of Palestine is:. 3 328 300
United States — Population: 295,734,134

So every Israeli=47 Yanks. Every Palestinian=89 Yanks. In effect, if you're Israeli you've had 50,948 of your compatriots killed. If you're Palestinian that's 364,099 of your compatriots killed.

So yeah. It is pretty big. But only a seventh of the Palestinian losses.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

If 45 British citizens were killed by terrorist you'd want revenge as well correct?

Not heard of the IRA or the 7/07 bombings? There are better ways to deal with it.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

And it's not like Isreal is saying "Hey, let's bomb the hospital" They are legitimatly seeking targets, quite unlike the religious radicals.

Well no. Israel really aren't bothered where they hit. Otherwise they wouldn't have flattened apartment blocks in down town Beirut.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

By not condeming the actions of the Terrorist groups (Hezbollah) that started this maybe?

I condemn the actions of Hezbullah and Hamas. But I sympathise with why they do it. I condemn the actions of Israel, but I see no justifications for their tactics.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

But freedom fighters don't tend to lauch missles at civilian homes and croweded market places do they?

They do when military targets are too well protected for attacks against them to make a difference.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Because they DID NOT start these conflicts.

This has been going on too long to be able to say "they started it". The point is that it's Israel who have the power and the ability to end this, not the Palestinian or Lebanese people.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Again, when your people (Isreal) are being blown up in a shopping mall, reaction is needed. These occupations are not pre-emptive or unsolicited. They are reactions to the racial hatred of their neighbors.

And when your people (Palestine) are having their homes flattened by bulldosers and forced into refugee camps, reaction is needed. Palestine is so kept on it's knees by Israel that it cannot maintain a standing army. Who do you expect to take action? The idea that it all boils down to racial hatred is, in itself, racist and ignorant of what's going on.