The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (country, punk, American, French)

[shadowsniper]

continued...


Some revolt, not many, but then things pick up. Falluga decides to up the anti, Sadr decides to releave them a bit by revolting too. Baghday citizens have to drive to falluga to give the needed food and water because the city is being besieged by american tanks. So there is a deal, Falluga is no longer in siege, but at a price. Those generals in charge of the city before the war, well those same ones are put back in place to take charge and help the people. These same Generals are not talking behind americas back and fighting them. Solution huh? Temporarly, same as whats going around all of Iraq and same as whats going on in the US. This is all a temporary conflict to create fear in us and have Bush be the "father" figure. Sounds like hitler to me. The guy we put in place to take charge of things, well we recently figured out he was a crook. Oh, not only that, but he supposedly gave Iran secret information, that is so sensitive that it can get Americans killed. Iran has over 14,000 spies in the country. We abused detainees now, we shot up another wedding party. We are breaking international laws. The world hates us because we are arrogant as much as a French man (I am one by the way and no I am not arrogant, I am from Canada) and now we are calling on the world to fix our problem. To go out of their way and pay for us and give us troops, to save our master plan to ruling the middle east politically and economically. Cuba got rid of the US in their revolution and now they have a country with only their own businesses, but we couldnt handle that so we put sanctions on them. Not even a month ago, we put sanctions on Syria as well. So whats going to happen? Well, Ill tell you whats going to happen. The same reason the US put Saddam in power (to stop Iran from spreading its borders into a shiite country like Iraq -Iran is shiite majority as is Iraq- and making a Shiite superpower that takes over Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia that has alot of oil), well this same reason that we put him in power and then we decided to take charge our own selves because he wouldnt listen, well we are failing at it. We we lose, what will probably happen is that Iran takes over Iraq and then we have a greater problem. What would then happen is that Iran will actually get a Nuke, not Iraq, no brother, you have been lied too. Then Iran gets long range ballistic missiles from North Korea. Oh yeah, we forgot about them because they have no oil. We are even taking troops out of South Korea now, because we are out of troops for Iraq, because countries are now realizing they have been lied to and they are taking their troops back. Spain, Dominican Republic, Honduras, and other nations have taken their troops out and other nations are threatening to take them out. We had Iran surrounded by both sides like we wanted (Iraq on western front, Iran in the middle, Afghanistan on eastern front), but now we are losing that. The Taliban are actually killing US soldiers almost daily but the news isnt covering it because they dont want to lose focus. Why do you think the beheading was made a big deal out of? Because we had news about torture that stained our image. Daniel Pearl, remember him, though u didnt, he was the journalist that was beheaded, oh yeah, they didnt say that on the news, they just said executed. Trust me he was behead, I have the video. We didnt speak out in outrage then, only when we see fit. Well, when Iraq falls, Iran is the country I think will take over for sure. Afghanistan, maybe Taliban, if not, then certainly Iran. So what do we have now? A country that hates us (Iran) and a country we hate having much more power and oil now! YEY. I am done, tired of writing. Just check the news everyday, its fun when your informed and this was the closest history lesson your probably going to get out of a person since you live in America and schools are cencosered. Bye

[shadowsniper]

ok, I am out, I posted past the exceeded limit, thats when you know you rambled on and on. Sorry peeps. Later.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by jibber

who cares made a good point, when i refer to bush, i'm actually referring to his administration. I read in a book recently from a guy who was fired from his post in the bush admin. that he would just sit there in the meetings, not saying anything, not giving away any information or changing the expressions on his face, just letting the decisions be debated and decided on while putting in very little of his own imput, not surprising really.

Yeah, I read that too. Weird guy that Bush. I also think its Rumsfeld and especially Cheney, that oil sucker. Evil people for sure. The only one with Dignity is Powell I find.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

So...If your boss fired you, I bet you'd have some lovely things to say about them? Probably not. So I don't see how you can really go off things written in that book.

The one thing that gets me mad is when people talk about "Killing Innocent Iraqi Civilians." When the "innocent" civilians are the one's housing the people we are searching for, trying to attack, what is there to do? Same thing happened in Vietnam, when we refused to attack the Religious buildings in the area. What happened? The Vietnameese hid in the buildings, firing from those areas, knowing we wouldn't attack. I'm glad to see Bush making it clear that if you house these refugees, you are just as much as an enemy to the troops then the actual refugee. Bush had a great administration? No, all the Presidents have sucked. The last person to actually have some intelligence (book smarts) was Bush Senior. Clinton was an idiot, but most people are so blinded by their "Party" that they don't seem to care. Are you telling me Kerry, a guy who bitched and moan about a war he was in after signing up for the armed forces, is gonna be the next great president? If so, give me a break. O yeah, and I've said this before. If you aren't from USA, don't even respond to what I've said, cause you don't know what goes on here, so it's not needed. I've got more to say, but my fingers are cramping.

Oh how lovely, an instigator. My fingers dont hurt so let me take up the lead. You can go off anything first of all. Everything is propaganda, but reading both sides gives you a more enlightened view of the situation. So never say you cant go off the book. Bush never publicly denied what the book speaks about anyways, so he isnt saying its not true.

Another thing, when a civilian shelters a "terrorist" its sometimes because the TERRORIST has a GUN to the guys face. Are you going to shoot the civilian who is a victim as well? Lets make it a killing frenzy, shall we? I do not recall people hidding in religious buildings in Vietnam, they sure arent Mosques or Cathedrals for sure. Are you talking about Monestaries? Even if they did, it wasnt a big factor and if they did, the US would be doing the same thing they are doing now in Iraq; going through them. Vietnamese deserve their victory... They faught stronger than any soldier I have ever heard of and they even beat the French, I studied these battles and even if I am French, I can admit that they deserve that victory. They probably lost more soldiers than both the US and France did and they dug those tunnels not with bulldozers but with hand and shovel.

I also think you made a mistake with your terminology there bud. A refugee is not a terrorist, thats probably because the news portrays palestinian refugees so much we havent separated the work terrorist and refugee. A refugee is a person who flees an area because of natural disasters or any other turmoil. They are homeless people. So if you want to bash on the homeless and say they are enemies. Well you have alot of killing to do in your nation alone because last time I checked there are alot of those in Baltimore, Chicago, NY, and other major metropolitan areas.

Bush Senior book smart? Well of course I think he has more experience then I, he is much older and a university graduate. Why would I argue that... Smart compared to other men in his field before and after him, I think not though. Roosevelt? Wilson? Jefferson? I am a foreigner living in Florida and I can tell you more about your own history, sad indeed my friend. Clinton, omg, how can you even speak in such a tone about him. He wasnt rich like all these other elites, he worked his way up the social ladder in this country and got his education in England. No, not the colonies, he got his education in the mother country, the Sun never sets on the British empire. John Kerry was a soldier like any other person and he got his medals to prove his own courage. While Bush didnt even show up to camp, lol. I dont see what the problem is with people complaining about someone trying to fight against a unjustified war. Kerry was protesting like MANY people in this country. If you want to justify a war in which we lost thousands of soldiers for a cause that was not even rightus. America was fearing the domino effect, I dont see communism everywhere now. Even after Vietnam became communist too. We preach democracy and yet we dont let people decided their own fates on what government type they want. If people in Iraq want a theocracy like Iran, why dont we respect their differences and actually work towards peace? Its not like all middle eastern countries are bad or like the koran is the book of the devil. Muslims are really related to Christians and Jews in views on religion, I dont see what the great fuss is about. Sure their are some really extreme people, but I see many other those knocking on my door on Sunday mornings while I am trying to sleep.

Last thing before I lose my temper and lash out. If your not from the USA dont respond. What is it with u man. If you had more respect for other people, I wouldnt bash on you. But ur asking for it. To inform you, I am not FROM the USA, but I live here. Its not me and my self in the world bud and you have to realize that if most foreign people criticize the US, its because there is a reason to and instead of blocking it out, you could actually be unarragent and listen and try to fix the source of the discord. I know many immigrants that are smarter than Americans who never went out of their homes or experienced other cultures. I also know many smart Americans. Those are the ones who acknowledge that we are a melting pot culture. Those are the ones who admit they them selves foreigners who come from distant lands onto conquered Native American land to persue a common goal; the American Dream. Know that you live in a democracy and that if your not happy with how the world views you and your fellow citizen, you can always vote for the better candidate and change that perception the world has of you. Right now, the world doesnt like the US that much. You probably know that and I am really sorry for that view because America has so many things and America is really fair when it comes to many things. I just dont like this capitalist, individualist, materialist, egocentrical, right wing, conservative, fundamental baptist religious, and militarist view and stand point the US has adopted. Sept. 11 happened for a reason and we have to try to figure out why. Slashing out against all Muslims will only create more terrorist and I think we are now starting to figure that out with new warnings of possible attacks soon. Figure out the source of the problem and fix it. You could start looking into why people become "terrorist" and if its connected to poverty first of all. Anyways, rambling again. Later.

[jibber]

holy crap shadowsniper that was hell of alot of writing. awesome points there. now on to alejo. i think the phrase "if you're not from america you can't offer an opinion" should be banned from these forums. do you actually think thats a valid argument? that's a nice conveinient way of trying to shut down any intelligent opposition of your opinions, but it doesn't work, it just makes your following arguments seem weak and pathetic. news flash, the entire friggen 1st world knows what goes on in the US, thats one of the effects of things like the interenet and television. sure the media is biased, but there is no reason for why the opinions of non-americans are less valid than those of americans, so just stop saying that, seriously, its gotten old. FYI, I made a mistake about the guy that wrote that book, got two books mixed up. I was thinking of an ex CIA agent who worked for the clinton admin, and then was fired. this guy was an independent journalist who interviewed everyone in the bush admin (privately, no cameras or other people present) including bush and wrote about the interviews in the book. it's called plan of attack by bob woodward, read i if you get the chance. another point, oil in alaska. contrary to popular belief, there's not all that much oil in there, certainly not nearly as much as is in iraq, syria or iran. plus, in case you haven't noticed, the world's oil supply isn't unlimited, and now more than ever there are more demands for stakes in the worlds oil supply. used to be that the US and a few other developed countries in the world were the main consumers of the world's oil supply. other countries used it of course, but nothing compared to the amount used by the US. now that many undeveloped countries are begining to strengthen their economy, they're wanting the same quality of life we have. china is one of these countries, with its huge population, once a substantial portion of their population attains enough money, there's going to be a huge demand on oil that simply isn't there at the moment. one expert predicted (can't remember his name at the moment, i'll get back to you on it) that by the year 2024, china's economy will be the strongest in the world. this means billions more people are going to want to buy cars, which means they'll need oil. so don't you think that the US would want to gain control over that as much as possible before that happens? and one more point, the whole issue of iraq did not come up after 9/11. there are documented meetings in which the bush admin discussed going to war with iraq, long before the attacks of 9/11 and long before terrorism was a huge issue in US politics.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

America has helped out more countries than any other country on the map, often helping too much, and has led to our National Debt. It's not our own buying that has put us where we are. But the one thign that cracks me up...the "huge supply of oil". Yeah, we started this war for oil. Especially when we have oil in Alaska that we haven't cracked. Especially when Saudi Arabia has twice as much oil as Iraq. We decided we'd go to Iraq so we could get second most. Good point. [end sarcasm]. If the war was for oil, we would have totally destroyed everything, which in my point is almost the way to go now with all the resistance. We have been trying to help Iraqi civilians, setting up schools etc, but often they are the spots attacked by the refugees (since we'd least expect it) Often CNN and other news casts are run by Democrats, and FOX is run by Republicans. Very different news casts are on every night. I truly don't trust either 100%. But that's just me.

Inform your self before you say the US has helped out more countries than any other country has. Ok, first of all, you have the greatest economy! Of course France or Germany cant give as much as you. The thing that is a better index at telling if your helping out more is the percent of your GNP that your spending on aid to other nations. Compare that # to the % spent on defense, you will see where I am coming from. We spend more money on military than our own school and health system. I am from Canada and we have universal health care, we get more taxed for it, but thats also a reason we have more trouble sending help to other nations. Even if this stands true, we still have a larger % of our GNP sent to other nations in aid. I dont know what your refering to and if its the World Bank or IMF your speaking of, well let me tell you they arent part of the American Government and they are screwing up the world anyways.

What made you go in debt was not AID, we havent increased it!!! We werent in dept as much as we are now before. So if the aid has been a constant, whats the variable? OH!!! September 11th and the small depression we had and omg, let me guess, the WAR!!! We spend more than 1 billion, listen to those coins fall, not 1/2 a billion, but a billion dollars A WEEK on military operations in Iraq.

And if you want to go drill in Alaska, a place where you get much of your fish, well your the one who wants to eat mercury and oil filled fish. Go ahead, do that. The smartest thing you can do I guess. Alaska will not give us that much oil first of all and it wont benefit us in the long run because of the cost and effect of drilling there. You have to understand that the oil in Alaska needs a lot of refining to do while the oil in the middle east is just pumped up like having a straw in a drink. Alaskan oil is oil that has dirt and other residue in it.

There is a reason we didnt attack Saudi Arab! Why would u think that? OH, because we have like maybe just a little amount of soldiers and bases there. Even airport at that. They are our allies too. Weird, most of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudi. Hm, they are our allies? Yeah, we call them our allies. The family in rule are dictators, but we love them that way, just like we liked Saddam. Why would we make our intentions obvious? Lets just attack the second most and we wills till have alot of oil and we cant be blamed for our intentions because if oil was our main reason, than we would of attack Saudi Arabia. But wait, they are larger and more developed. They also have our weapons and they also havent been bomb the bejesus out of them for more than 10 years and they also dont have sanctions on them and they also didnt try to assassinate daddy bush and they also are not next to Iran, want me to continue? They also dont have WMD like we provided to Saddam and they also didnt shoot scuds at our little buddies the Jews. Want me to go on? My fingers are now starting to hurt, so I will progress to better things.

We destroyed everything? Hm, I thought that was before the war? Back when they didnt think of this grand plan. During the war I heard they tried not to shoot electrical plants and water system. Wherent the lights on in Baghdad while all hell broke loose and the bombs fell in "shock and awe"? I know your agreeing with me now, because thats what you said, you said they didnt destroy everything and they would of if we wanted oil. Ok, when you say everything, shooting or destroying every important building is not going to kill the people who are attacking us now. We are being attacked by dads, kids, and families. So if your solution was to just nuke the place and get ride of everything, then your just an idiot, but Ill be optimistic and assume you just generalized and didnt mean everything. Because you know that if you destroy many buildings or "everything" like you said, that includes the oil refineries we will need to REBUILD and SPEND AMERICAN TAX DOLLARS ON. So spending more money and time to destroy everything and rebuild everything, thats ur solution? I guess not. Your just saying we should now because people are shooting us from Mosques. So lets shoot the mosques like we did like 2 weeks ago and lets make 1 billion Muslims around the world pissed off at us more then they are already and make not 10,000 terrorist but 1 million or 2. Either way, ur arguement makes no sense and your being general.

So I guess the only reason to "attack" Iraq was to save the poor Iraqis then. Because we magically care for the citizens of a country we sanctioned for more than 10 years. Makes sense in ur head I guess. We like spending money on people we dont know and we have favorites now and I assume Iraqis are the only ones we want to help. Or we just want to start helping them then cure the plague and disease that we think is engraved in the minds of all those extremists. So we go there and have a foothold now in the arab land and now we can embark on our renewed crusade, like a born again christian. Then again we have Saudi Arabia, our little buddies, the ones who beat their whives and stone people. Those people arent suffering, we shouldnt help them, the Iraqis are suffering. Not those beat up whives.

So we are helping Iraqis so much, we really didnt expect them to attack back at us. No, for sure, we take their country and we expect them to be submissive. What is it with you man? If someone took the US, I would be mad too. Give me the gun and I will fight the infidels, of what ever you want ot call them. We do the same thing, but we go ravage other places that havent attacked us here. We first fought the infidels, then the communist, then those drug lords that we never seem to find and we always have more and more drugs, why not legalize them? Dont know really. Christians would flip like inverted crosses. Then we blame it on the "terrorists", the reasons for war always change and the intent always the same; conquest. This American nation is an empire that was based on good intentions but has grown sour. I pray that someone fixes this hate and destruction before we turn into something like the book 1984 speaks of. Fox news is just our telescreen. Let big brother (bush) speak to us directly with his radio and tv addresses. Nothing significant is spoken about but we always know that the enemy is on us and they are plotting and we must build more arms then them or attack them first before they do. Dont u see the similarities? We attacked the Taliban without credible proof! Dont get me wrong, I do think the Taliban helped Al-Qaeda, but I also look at the hypocrosy of judging before proven guilty approach we have to world politics. So anyways, I am out. Try to debate against the truth and die failing.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by brokenheartsandfallenhero

Whoa whoa whoa our helping other countries has not led to natonal debt our economic problem began in 1913 when the federal reserve banking system was created by Alridge, that is a private banking system that the american government borrows money from all the time so they can fund these unconstitutional agencies and departments. Also I agree that the whole reason we are in Iraq is not for oil, no we are there becasue in Bush's childish mind he is walking in Daddy Bush's footsteps, or somebody in Iraq pissed off a rockerfeller,rothchild,or Kennedy and as far as great presidents whose to judge? The american people who have been blinded by media and "patriotic acts" it is humorus to me that we can look back at John Brown with views of a patriot and with sorrow but look at Robert E. Lee as a biggot and murderer. But this is because our educational system is controlled by socialist bastards that were allowed in this country in the 1800s thinking they could better our government with the kissing cousin of communism and are now dumbing down americas youth so that free choice is a thing of the past and there is now more freedom, just contentment.

Nice!!! Actual referencing. Good points but I also have to disagree with something, but I wont argue it because we arent discussing this subject anyways.

I just dont agree about socialist bing the cause of problems here. I am a socialist and I have to also point my finger to the European nations right now under a socialistic government and the standards of education they have. They top any of our schools and they have free universities. I dont really see the negative in that. I just dont think the poor should not be allowed to have free schooling and health, I think those are universal and a privilege of the state. Anyways, sorry. Good points though.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by Who_Cares

My fantasy/sci-fi Lit teacher was telling me about this book written by a retired teacher in NY called Dumbing Us Down , although i can't remember his name. But anyways, the teacher was awarded the teacher of the year award for the entire state of NY the year he retired. Afterwards he wrote this book which basically says that the government is intentionally restricting education so we all become sheep for the elections and everything. I thought that this was very interesting, because a respected educator wrote it and it also shows a reason why many Americans follow and support the war in Iraq without really knowing anything about it what-so-ever.... especially the people in my stupid ass hick town! LOL

Nice. I agree. I also have to state how I find that the south is way more christianized, but in a bad way, in a more fundamentalist way. Alot of them voted for Bush because he is a "born again" christian and I think that most major cities shelter more intellectuals than the south "hick" towns. I know I live in the south. I recently dated one of those fundamental people, o god save me.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by jibber

holy crap shadowsniper that was hell of alot of writing. awesome points there. now on to alejo. i think the phrase "if you're not from america you can't offer an opinion" should be banned from these forums. do you actually think thats a valid argument? that's a nice conveinient way of trying to shut down any intelligent opposition of your opinions, but it doesn't work, it just makes your following arguments seem weak and pathetic. news flash, the entire friggen 1st world knows what goes on in the US, thats one of the effects of things like the interenet and television. sure the media is biased, but there is no reason for why the opinions of non-americans are less valid than those of americans, so just stop saying that, seriously, its gotten old. FYI, I made a mistake about the guy that wrote that book, got two books mixed up. I was thinking of an ex CIA agent who worked for the clinton admin, and then was fired. this guy was an independent journalist who interviewed everyone in the bush admin (privately, no cameras or other people present) including bush and wrote about the interviews in the book. it's called plan of attack by bob woodward, read i if you get the chance. another point, oil in alaska. contrary to popular belief, there's not all that much oil in there, certainly not nearly as much as is in iraq, syria or iran. plus, in case you haven't noticed, the world's oil supply isn't unlimited, and now more than ever there are more demands for stakes in the worlds oil supply. used to be that the US and a few other developed countries in the world were the main consumers of the world's oil supply. other countries used it of course, but nothing compared to the amount used by the US. now that many undeveloped countries are begining to strengthen their economy, they're wanting the same quality of life we have. china is one of these countries, with its huge population, once a substantial portion of their population attains enough money, there's going to be a huge demand on oil that simply isn't there at the moment. one expert predicted (can't remember his name at the moment, i'll get back to you on it) that by the year 2024, china's economy will be the strongest in the world. this means billions more people are going to want to buy cars, which means they'll need oil. so don't you think that the US would want to gain control over that as much as possible before that happens? and one more point, the whole issue of iraq did not come up after 9/11. there are documented meetings in which the bush admin discussed going to war with iraq, long before the attacks of 9/11 and long before terrorism was a huge issue in US politics.

Hats off to you. Yeah, its Bob that wrote the book, my friend has it and I read exerpts. China is growing so fast actually that the government is trying to slow it down because an economy that is out of control could create inflation or it could just explode and create a great depression afterwards. A large reason for oil being low right now is because of China actually and I am really tired of the whining about the gas. In England its more than 5 dollars a gallon and other nations have it worst. Chinas military is also a major concert to the US. I dont think its that big of an issue. I just say, stay out of their way and if they want Taiwan back, dont fight them about it. I think countries ultimatly want peace but some have immidiate needs they want to fullfil, but of course we cant make mistakes for dictators like Hitler, some countries want power and all powers at all means. I dont think there are many such countries in our world right now like that, other then Bush.

I also heard about those meetings they had. Cheney, Rumsfeld and I think Bush were part of an organization that met to talk about how to secure Americans future and one of their documents spoke about taking over a middle easter oil country.

[IamAlejo]

Wow, you can't expect me to read anything about what you just said...though I will make an attempt. Where to start where to start.......

Hussein was a secular person, religion was a means of control, not a reason to control. His sole purpose was to create a state in the middle east that was the leader of the arab people. He even let women go into universities to persue careers and he wasnt fundamental at all, he just wanted a modern arab state.

That's why he gassed his own people? A wonderful man....Please don't talk about how wonderful a man Hussein is, it flaunts your ignorance.

The reason I say that I don't care about a foreigners opinion (other than the fact that I don't) is that many of you are force fed opinions in your news of America and Americans. It is ridiculous what your news is, just as our news. All news tries to show the best (or worst) of things. The fact that I live in a military town (the biggest naval base in the world is around the corner) makes a lot of opportunities open for me to ask friends and others what is going on. The military (especially the higher up) know more about what's going on than you or I will ever know.....Next quote

Cuba got rid of the US in their revolution and now they have a country with only their own businesses, but we couldnt handle that so we put sanctions on them.

Well, we did support Castro during his revolution. We wanted a change, and it didn't work out. So we aren't allowed to put sanctions on people? Like OPEC did back in the day? Everyone uses sanctions to try to put others in a situation, hoping we can incite a revolution of Castro, since we are against Communism. Cuba=Communist, so we aren't going to support them. Common Sense. You make it seem as if it is all about "OIL". Explain to me why we didn't attack Saudi Arabia, which has twice the oil. Maybe we weren't satisfied with the weapon inspections going on? You say news skips things, and we forget quickly. Possibly you are forgetting, we did find Long Range Missiles that Iraq was not supposed to have because of UN sanctions. But I guess it's the UN's fault, who are they to impose sanctions?