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Old 08-29-2018, 05:30 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Hard determinism I can get behind, "no free will" in terms of no accountability is nonsense.
We’re evolved to see a lack of free will as counterintuitive so it’s an existential dead end to live as if there’s no free will even though there isn’t. We must ignore the truth and live as if we have free will. And that means holding people accountable for their behavior. We’re a long way off from transitioning into how to deal with matters such as accountability.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:35 PM   #112 (permalink)
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We’re evolved to see a lack of free will as counterintuitive so it’s an existential dead end to live as if there’s no free will even though there isn’t. We must ignore the truth and live as if we have free will. And that means holding people accountable for their behavior. We’re a long way off from transitioning into how to deal with matters such as accountability.
Church. Brains run on math the same as everything else in the universe, and math isn't multiple choice (shut up). To hold a series of algorithms responsible for anything is nonsense but there's no current alternative.
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:36 PM   #113 (permalink)
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If youre not looking at this issue through the eyes of how the judicial system should handle it than its not a discussion worth having.
What? Morality isn't worth discussing until it's illegal?
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:38 PM   #114 (permalink)
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I define it as not being bound to a predetermined fate.

Do you consider "you" to be separate from the brain?
To simplify the conversation and to avoid having to go into every useless caveat I'll just say no.

Since we have no control over even the tiniest of our actions we are obviously bound to a predetermined fate. It was settled and soon as the Big Bang started the universe expanding. Obviously. Unless you think we are of some supernatural property from outside the universe.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:41 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Church. Brains run on math the same as everything else in the universe, and math isn't multiple choice (shut up). To hold a series of algorithms responsible for anything is nonsense but there's no current alternative.
Yeah. I think I remember you understood this when we discussed it before iirc

That’s pleasing to me because it’s so in your face obvious but still so few people seem to get it.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:44 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Church. Brains run on maths the same as everything else in the universe, and maths isn't multiple choice (shut up). To hold a series of algorithms responsible for anything is nonsense but there's no current alternative.
Edited for our UK friends
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:49 PM   #117 (permalink)
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You forgot:

Brains >>>
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I'd vote for Trump
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:51 PM   #118 (permalink)
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To hold a series of algorithms responsible for anything is nonsense but there's no current alternative.
What would you do if your computer caught on fire?

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To simplify the conversation and to avoid having to go into every useless caveat I'll just say no.

Since we have no control over even the tiniest of our actions we are obviously bound to a predetermined fate. It was settled and soon as the Big Bang started the universe expanding. Obviously. Unless you think we are of some supernatural property from outside the universe.
If "we" are our brains, then "we" are the ones controlling our actions. Also, predetermined is not synonymous with predictable.
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:11 PM   #119 (permalink)
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What would you do if your computer caught on fire?
If a computer is on fire you put it out and then either fix it or discard it. But you don't claim that the computer was morally wrong.

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If "we" are our brains, then "we" are the ones controlling our actions. Also, predetermined is not synonymous with predictable.
For me to call it freewill you'd have to be able to rewind from a cause and effect to before the cause and find just one instance where the event happened differently. Let's take you walking down the street and you stub your toe, shout "****!", and hop up and down on the other foot three times. Now we replay the incident one billion times to see if you shout "****!" or hop up and down four times or step differently so that you don't stub your toe at all. If that never happens and you do the same exact thing over and over and over then does it make sense to say that you have freewill?
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:12 PM   #120 (permalink)
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I'm not convinced that because something has a beginning the end is predetermined

I'm not against the idea, I just don't see where the absolute assurance is coming from

what tells you that moment to moment there aren't dice rolls going on
Even a dice roll is predetermined based on how it's thrown, the weight of the dice, what they're landing on, etc.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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