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Old 07-26-2017, 07:41 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Trollheart View Post

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-progressive_rock

Again, just because you hate it doesn't deny its definition.
How does that contradict my point?
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:28 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Trollheart View Post
Vambo, you reveal yourself as one of those insufferable prog snobs that hang out at ProgArchives, who believe nothing after 1976 is prog or worth talking about, and are permanently mired in the seventies. Do you own a cape?

I can understand people not liking, say, Marillion, but for one to call them talentless, as one member over there did, is pretty stupid. There are plenty of bands I don't rate but I'd never call them talentless. Not saying you do, but I get the feeling you may agree with the sentiment. If I'm wrong, fair enough, I apologise, but your comment about neo-prog leads me to believe I'm correct.

First off - thankyou for not nailing me without knowing what music I espouse.

True, I do not rate neo high -compared to the other cornerstones of wide-Prog - but I do not ignore it either. It has value.

And I think it was yourself (?) who listed the good ones. I would rate:

the first two Marillions,

Pallas-Sentinel and the 2 early EPs

IQ "Tales from the Lush Attic" & "the Wake"

Pendragon - the jewel

The four Twelfth Night lps

I have these in the collection and more - including a few terrible ones like Haze: Niadim's Ghost being the worst. And Austria's Deyss (but incredible foc art - so its a keeper.)


During the prog doldrums of 80s there was not much to explore except neo and all neo came out of UK.

But then something horrid happeded: The Netherlands started taking up the neo banner.

They had called their prog "Symphonic Prog" from the start, but when their neo came in the late 80s it was truely horrorshow.

I would buy Euro progs in the mail without any knowledge of the actual music and my biggest disappointments were 5 lps I got off of what I call the worse prog label ever: the Dutch Sym-Info label.
(No, Im not gonna mention the bands names.)


Back then there was not much to pick from. But there were lotta "neo" fanzines.Most of them quarterly and all very thin. I still have some of these:
the dutch Freia (which actually put out one thicker quarterly-maybe 25 pages), Dutch Background (the big one then), two or three from France: Acid Dragon,Mr Peach... and the best of the lot, Sophisticated Rock from Germany.


Fanzines like Background occasionally pushed quality, straight progs like Eloy and Enid, but there pages would be littered with dross neos like It Bites.

Aye, It Bites was a particular sorry favorite.


Oh yeah: Enid were a band out of their time.
I never could see them as neo -but there you have it.
Two hallmarks of neo are verbosity and emotionality of lyric . Enid exemplify neither.
They (and the Craft lp) were mainly instrumental. (And can you think of any neo lps that are instrumental; besides the one 12th Night?)

Last edited by vambo; 07-27-2017 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 07-27-2017, 02:15 PM   #73 (permalink)
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How does that contradict my point?
Nowhere in that definition does it mention new age, nor tepidity. So your attempt to reduce neo-prog to that, simply because you don't like it, fails. That definition tells you what neo-prog is recognised to be, your definition tells you what you want it to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vambo View Post
First off - thankyou for not nailing me without knowing what music I espouse.

True, I do not rate neo high -compared to the other cornerstones of wide-Prog - but I do not ignore it either. It has value.

And I think it was yourself (?) who listed the good ones. I would rate:

the first two Marillions,

Pallas-Sentinel and the 2 early EPs

IQ "Tales from the Lush Attic" & "the Wake"

Pendragon - the jewel

The four Twelfth Night lps

I have these in the collection and more - including a few terrible ones like Haze: Niadim's Ghost being the worst. And Austria's Deyss (but incredible foc art - so its a keeper.)


During the prog doldrums of 80s there was not much to explore except neo and all neo came out of UK.

But then something horrid happeded: The Netherlands started taking up the neo banner.

They had called their prog "Symphonic Prog" from the start, but when their neo came in the late 80s it was truely horrorshow.

I would buy Euro progs in the mail without any knowledge of the actual music and my biggest disappointments were 5 lps I got off of what I call the worse prog label ever: the Dutch Sym-Info label.
(No, Im not gonna mention the bands names.)


Back then there was not much to pick from. But there were lotta "neo" fanzines.Most of them quarterly and all very thin. I still have some of these:
the dutch Freia (which actually put out one thicker quarterly-maybe 25 pages), Dutch Background (the big one then), two or three from France: Acid Dragon,Mr Peach... and the best of the lot, Sophisticated Rock from Germany.


Fanzines like Background occasionally pushed quality, straight progs like Eloy and Enid, but there pages would be littered with dross neos like It Bites.

Aye, It Bites was a particular sorry favorite.


Oh yeah: Enid were a band out of their time.
I never could see them as neo -but there you have it.
Two hallmarks of neo are verbosity and emotionality of lyric . Enid exemplify neither.
They (and the Craft lp) were mainly instrumental. (And can you think of any neo lps that are instrumental; besides the one 12th Night?)
Some good stuff there. I'm also into the earlier prog, but not all of it. Don't like early Yes too much, love Rush, love Genesis (all time favourite), try to get into VDGG but the jazzy influences keep putting me off, have heard little Camel, though I think I might like it. Didn't like the two Soft Machine albums I tried, Focus were meh, ELP I never liked at all. Tull I couldn't stand, and anyway I see him mostly as more folk than prog really. I tried Gentle Giant and was not impressed. Much of the 70s prog bores me, though I've heard some good RPI bands.

When you say Dutch neo-prog, are you talking about the likes of Epica and Within Temptation? I'd class them more as prog metal really.

As for a neoprog instrumental album, have you heard this?
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Old 07-27-2017, 02:20 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Nowhere in that definition does it mention new age, nor tepidity. So your attempt to reduce neo-prog to that, simply because you don't like it, fails. That definition tells you what neo-prog is recognised to be, your definition tells you what you want it to be.
It doesn't say "new age" or "tepid" verbatim, no, but what it does say

Quote:
Neo-progressive rock (or simply "neo-prog")[3] is characterized by deeply emotional content, often delivered via dramatic lyrics and a generous use of imagery and theatricality on-stage. The music is mostly the product of careful composition, relying less heavily on improvised jamming. The subgenre relies very much on clean, melodic & emotional electric guitar solos, combined with keyboards. The main musical influences on the neo-prog genre are bands from the first wave of progressive rock such as early Genesis, Camel, and to a lesser extent, Van der Graaf Generator and Pink Floyd.[1] Funk music, punk rock and hard rock were also influences on the genre.[4]
Is basically the same thing.

The wiki entry itself says that it's a prog subgenre, not just any old prog music made after 1980. That was my original point.

So again, why are you posting this as if it isn't saying the same thing as me?
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Old 07-27-2017, 02:27 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Nowhere in that definition does it mention new age, nor tepidity.
Quote:
Neo-progressive bands emphasized individual solos instead of group improvisation, and they included more world-music elements.
Your own source contradicts you.
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Old 07-27-2017, 02:42 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Many a genre included worldmusic elements back in 80s.
yOU'RE not going to call Popol Vuh neo now are you Batbird?


...
I have a Willowglass , but not that specific title. Don't see him as being neoprog in the least.


...

Don't know Epica or Temptation. Suspect its much later (metal-****) musics (the Dutch neoprog was late 80s.)

....

Troll heart - you cant get into GGiant, VDGG or ELP?

You are a lost soul.
I weep copiously.


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Old 07-27-2017, 03:02 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Many a genre included worldmusic elements back in 80s.
yOU'RE not going to call Popol Vuh neo now are you Batbird?
**** if I know, I don't listen to any of that ****. I'm just throwing shade at Trollheart.

And yes, Epica and Within Temptation are ****ty metal bands for angsty teens.
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Old 07-27-2017, 03:04 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Popol Vuh is pretty great though bat.

It would be nonsensical to call them neoprog tbh, but if someone called them new age at least I could chalk that up to ignorance of any kind of ambient music.
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Old 07-27-2017, 03:18 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Popol Vuh is pretty great though bat.

It would be nonsensical to call them neoprog tbh, but if someone called them new age at least I could chalk that up to ignorance of any kind of ambient music.
I'll give em a shot. All this talk of prog reminded me that I'm still a hopeless Magma noob, so I'm gonna bump some Mekan´k Destrukt´w Kommand÷h and then probably check out some more cause this album is gloriously oddball as hell and makes me wish I didn't freak out on shrooms.

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Old 07-27-2017, 03:20 PM   #80 (permalink)
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It doesn't say "new age" or "tepid" verbatim, no, but what it does say



Is basically the same thing.

The wiki entry itself says that it's a prog subgenre, not just any old prog music made after 1980. That was my original point.

So again, why are you posting this as if it isn't saying the same thing as me?
That's all down to your own interpretation of what's tepid and new-age. I'm just pointing out there's a lot more to it than you were willing to admit. As usual, cherry-picking, but whatev, what do I care?
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Your own source contradicts you.
Since when was world music new age, dumbass?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vambo View Post
Many a genre included worldmusic elements back in 80s.
yOU'RE not going to call Popol Vuh neo now are you Batbird?


...
I have a Willowglass , but not that specific title. Don't see him as being neoprog in the least.
I guess. I don't know what you'd call him. It's The Dream Harbour I have anyway. Great album.

Quote:

Don't know Epica or Temptation. Suspect its much later (metal-****) musics (the Dutch neoprog was late 80s.)
Yeah you're right there: Epica formed in 2002, Within Temptation 1996.
Quote:
Troll heart - you cant get into GGiant, VDGG or ELP?

You are a lost soul.
I weep copiously.
Gentle Giant just did not impress me, but it was only the first album I listened to. ELP I have never liked; heard Tarkus and Brain Salad Surgery. Just bored me. Kind of like early Yes: suites too long and just not engaging, to me. VDGG I am getting into, slowly. I love Pawn Hearts, and some specific songs like "Man-erg" (I think: starts with a slow piano and "A killer lives inside me"?), "Killer", "Refugees", "Whatever would Robert have said?", "The boat of millions of years", "Masks", "Childlike faith in childhood's end", "Darkness", "Lost", a few others. I bought all their albums on vinyl way back when but no longer have a turntable, however I did rebuy them all digitally.

I think the problem with some of these bands is the length of some of their songs, and not only the "old prog" bands. I tried to listen to "The last human gateway" at least five times, and fell asleep every time. And yet I love "Supper's ready", "Grendel", "A plague of lighthouse keepers", "The light", "2112" and other really long songs. I guess a suite has to really engage me to keep my attention, and stuff from Yes/ELP just never really has. I do like newer Yes though, from 90125 to about Union. Wasn't mad about The Ladder, loved ABWH, still working through the albums that followed those.
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