Can/ which current MC's can become legends?

DwnWthVwls · 02-26-2015, 07:37 PM

You don't have to be innovative to influence a genre. Success alone is sufficient enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goofle

Unless DWV edited his post I apologise for not seeing him say "(underground)" after his second list.

No it was an edit. I made two separate lists to try and distinguish between the two, but it still seemed confusing, so I fixed it. Also, to clarify, I think Kanye is innovative in the industry for his production not his MC abilities.

Black Francis · 02-26-2015, 07:40 PM

What does MJ have to do with this thread? his creative merits are not in the hip hop genre.

~~Soulflower~~ · 02-26-2015, 07:41 PM

No one said you had to be innovative to influence a genre. This was actually the point I was trying to make with the "Chronic album"

~~Soulflower~~ · 02-26-2015, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Francis

Lil wayne i could concede becoming a legend. ive even heard some ppl credit him for the term 'Bling' though idk if it's true if that was his creation.

Kanye for me started on the right path of becoming a legend but got too arrogant along the way and now doesn't the deserve the Legend status. Not just cause of his attitude but because imo the quality of his music has also dropped.

Thanks.

His music is no where as good as it use to be.

He is very overrated.

~~Soulflower~~ · 02-26-2015, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goofle

I think it's important to make a distinction between mainstream and "underground". Sure, Aesop will go down as a legend in some people's minds, but he's never going to reach Nas/Outkast or even Mos Def type status overall.

Good point.

I think there are different levels of legendary status.

**Frownland** · 02-26-2015, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulflower

He has not innovated anything to the rap genre, how is this a straw man argument?

The fact that he is an ******* also makes my argument a strawman?

Yes, because you're misrepresenting my argument and proving facts against this nonexistent argument that you think I'm making and believing that you're proving what I'm saying wrong. You did it by making the conversation about Kanye's being an asshole and arguing that there is no innovation in the mainstream when that's nowhere near what I was addressing in my post. It's called a fallacy. Look into it (as well as the rest): Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How about you focus on what I'm actually saying instead of picking and choosing little things to criticize with your cute little "facts". I was talking about whether people would consider him a legend, not whether I would, not whether people like him, and not whether I like him. Cut that fallacy bull**** out, it's quite exhausting.

Quote:

This is not accurate. What he did with music videos was not being done before his time. He made music videos into an art form.

He is an innovator and any non MJ fan walking down the street will say the same thing.

His concerts and performance were innovative as well and were not done before his time.

These things might not relate to music directly but they are associated with music and were new ideas so its fair to call him an innovator.

By your definition he is not an innovator because he hadn't created something completely different. Music videos had already been an industry before he entered it and everyone who ever made a music video failed to make a single change in the music video world. There is no way that anybody after the first person to create a music video can be called a legend by your criteria. Several hundreds of artists played shows on large scales before Michael Jackson with lots of flair, therefore he's a big copycat on those shows and cannot be considered an innovator in any way.

Now the above is basically what your standards look like when they're taken apart and applied to Michael Jackson instead of modern music/hip hop. It's clearly fucking ridiculous because Jackson did innovate in those fields, those are some of the things that helped him become a legend, but when you set these impossibly high standards against him he could never enter into that status. Do you understand why people would think that your argument is ludicrous when it's applied to music that you clearly know nothing about and that they listen to and enjoy? I don't like Michael Jackson but looking at it from an objective perspective I would agree that he is a legend. It might better your musical perspective to attempt to do the same and at least consider that other people besides for the greatest music mind that is Soulflower might consider that person a legend, therefore making them a legend in their given field. This is why I would say that Kanye's a legend, even if I don't like his music, but simply because of his status among so many people as one of the greatest. He has innovated in those fields by bringing certain things within his music to the public eye that wasn't necessarily there before. But go ahead and ignore this, I know you're quite a fan of that.

I wonder which cherries you'll pick this round! I look forward to it.

Black Francis · 02-26-2015, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulflower

Thanks.

His music is no where as good as it use to be.

He is very overrated.

Its a bit sad really cause i remember the first time i heard 'through the wire' i thought: "Whoa, who's this kid?" cause he kinda came outta nowhere with a great style

He seemed more humble and more about the art not the ego back then and it reflected on his music.

~~Soulflower~~ · 02-26-2015, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

fine. then straigh outta compton isn't innovative because it was influenced by all sorts of previous hip hop. at the very least they didn't invent rap music so they took that from someone else thus not innovative. hell, hip hop in general isn't innovative cause it's always taken samples from older music to make the beats, if you want to use that standard.

it's g-funk

the chronic is gangsta rap. so is kool g rap. so is nwa. so is mobb deep. all 4 artists have completely different styles from one another and can't be lumped together by any criteria other than the fact that they all happen to feature lyrics which talk about the criminal lifestyle. who's to say that is the defining quality and not the production style or other stylistic elements of the music that don't specifically relate to the lyrical content?

even with the lyrical content rap was innovated drastically over the period of time from the late 80's to the late 90's. but i'm just pointing out that you can't pick one arbitrary criteria and say that so long as that still applies there's nothing new being presented.

Very True however you implied that album innovated gangsta rap and that is simply not true...

Also, Straight Outta Compton was innovative it innovated a completely new style of rap.

**Frownland** · 02-26-2015, 07:56 PM

Nothing innovative to see here. Hip hop's already been invented, El-P, why do you even try to make new music? You're just the same as every other hip hop group.

Mondo Bungle · 02-26-2015, 08:07 PM

He brought that genuine **** back in 96

02-26-2015, 07:40 PM	#52 (permalink)
Black Francis Out of Place Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: in an abstract house Posts: 4,111	What does MJ have to do with this thread? his creative merits are not in the hip hop genre. __________________ "Hey Kids you got to meet the MIGHTY PIXIES!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbRbCtIgW3A

02-26-2015, 07:56 PM	#59 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,548	Nothing innovative to see here. Hip hop's already been invented, El-P, why do you even try to make new music? You're just the same as every other hip hop group. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

02-26-2015, 07:41 PM	#53 (permalink)
~~Soulflower~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,304	No one said you had to be innovative to influence a genre. This was actually the point I was trying to make with the "Chronic album"