Led Zeppelin is the greatest band ever

Neapolitan · 10-20-2017, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Bleh, we can argue semantics all day. To these ears, 90125 doesn't really sound like other pop albums of the early 80's (least if we're talking '82 through '83), and that's due to the inherent progginess behind Squire and White as they polished Rabin's initial ideas. Duran Duran are a good band, but you'd never get a song like 'Hearts' or 'Leave It' or 'Changes' on Rio or their debut. Plus, if you really look at Yes overall, you can see the clear progression of ideas from Going For The One to Tormato and then Drama through 90125 despite the differing lineups. Trevor Rabin merely served as a catalyst for the Drama "sound" to manifest in a more commercial setting and gave Anderson an excuse to come back.

Also, I think you are missing the forest a little through the trees here. You keep focusing on Rabin's songwriting like he doesn't measure up somehow, but Trevor Horn was coming into his own as a producer at the time and had a massive impact on the sound of 90125. He somehow took Jon Anderson's distinctive harmonies and melodies and applied them to AOR-inspired cuts that would work on radio, yet obviously went to some lengths to preserve the adventurous spirit at the root of the "idea" of Yes. He essentially pulled a Lazarus and brought them back from the dead for a younger audience to discover, which is something that hasn't happened that often in the history of the music industry.

So if anything, the work he did on there ended up influencing everyone else to some degree in 80s music as the middle of the decade because Horn was instrumental in creating the sound of that album...and then he became one of the biggest names in music production right after it came out. So take that for what you will.

If you can accept King Crimson's Discipline or Genesis's Duke as prog/pop records because they tried to synthesize aspects of both worlds and succeeded to various degrees, then it should be obvious why 90125 is often regarded positively in a similar sense.

It's not about semantics. You think that best of TREY would be the best Prog-Pop album ever. I just disagree.

I think one should be able to question how Prog the material was, and to be able to question whether or not that "Prog-Pop" should extended to cover things that are already covered by "80s Pop." Another thing "Prog-Pop" is such a wide an umbrella term, it is practically useless. Just because the bulk of Prog was album oriented doesn't mean that Prog didn't have the occasional single. One can argue that Money, Take a Pebble, Lucky Man, Follow You Follow Me, Carpet of the Sun and a truncated version of I've Seen All Good People are also "Prog-Pop" cause those songs were released as singles, had moderate success on the Top 100/Top 40 charts, and were by Prog bands. Yet style-wise there is no correlation between those songs and songs on 90125, a "Prog-Pop" album.

There was a lot of music from 80 to 83 that was better than TREY. The Cars, The Fixx, INXS, Duran Duran were all really good bands and crafted songs as good as any "Prog-Pop" band or even better than TREY. They all have the same ingredients: vocals/harmonies, bass, guitar, synth and drums. It would be strange to exclude bands cause they were considered "New Wave" and think the best TREY songs are somehow the best of what the 80s have to offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

He essentially pulled a Lazarus and brought them back from the dead for a younger audience to discover, which is something that hasn't happened that often in the history of the music industry.

I really don't know how rare that is. I know of other examples when a member enters a bands and help forged a new sound. I don't know if that proves anything. It could be a rare occurrence (like you mentioned).
Clarence White - The Byrds
Mick Taylor - The Rolling Stones
Lindsey Buckingham - Fleetwood Mac
Jo Callis - The Human League
John Frusciante - RHCP
Dave Navaro - RHCP
Ben Sheppard - Soundgarden

Wait a minute we are talking about Yes, every new member somehow change the sound of Yes.

I don't see Yes having chart success in the 80s as anything that unique, that it only happened to Yes. There were plenty of bands and artist that had success in the charts during the 80s that really didn't have it during the bulk of the 70s.
Steve Winwood had a hit with the Spencer Davis Group then later in the 80s as a solo artist.
Dionne Warwick had hits with Bacharach & David songs during the 60s, not much happened during the 70s, then had hits again in the 80s.
The Kinks had Lola in the early 70, then didn't have a hit like an actual Top 10 till the 80s.
Eddy Grant had a hit with The Equals during the 60s, then with Electric Avenue in 82/83.
Rush and Genesis were there along with Yes enjoy pop success too.

In short I don't see Trevor Rabin pulling a rabbit out of the hat. 90125 is not innovative as it conformed to other 80s music that was popular at the time. And it was made to be get into the charts ergo Pop music. I don't think 90125 lives up the hype. Sorry

Trollheart · 10-20-2017, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicShazam

Not sure if you're just dad-joking or if you really missed that I edited Qwerty's original comment.

Tbh, I multi-quoted as you see, and when I got to that quote I'd forgotten what I wanted to say, why I had included it, so I just dad-joked my way out of it. Us old people need our sleep, you know, or we get so cranky.

Anteater · 10-20-2017, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

In short I don't see Trevor Rabin pulling a rabbit out of the hat. 90125 is not innovative as it conformed to other 80s music that was popular at the time. And it was made to be get into the charts ergo Pop music. I don't think 90125 lives up the hype. Sorry

That's fine. I'll bet you'll come back to it at some point and find that some of the songs grew on you when you least expected it. I dismissed 90125 and Big Generator for a long time after all.

OccultHawk · 10-20-2017, 08:12 AM

fwiw I love 90125

Neapolitan · 10-20-2017, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

That's fine. I'll bet you'll come back to it at some point and find that some of the songs grew on you when you least expected it. I dismissed 90125 and Big Generator for a long time after all.

Well, it's like we are the Seussian north-going Zax and a south-going Zax who meet face to face over a Yes album. Where I use to like the album at first, and then I started noticing little things about it that annoyed me, and eventually I became less and less enthused over it, eventually out-growing it. For you it was an album that grew on you.

Sorry that your arguments didn't work on me. I can be persuaded though ... sometimes. The album "Genesis" was one in their catalog that I never really payed much attention to, until I came across Trollheart's ire for the album. Being rather stunned by his comments, and rather curious about them too, I played the album to see whether he was right or wrong. I diligently studied the album looking for any and all mistakes - not really finding any. The album became on of my favorites of theirs. "Taking It All Too Hard" is such a great song. (I will allow you to refer to it as a "Prog-Pop" song if you have the irresistible inclination to call it as such.) It didn't score high on the charts, much much lower on the charts than the singles that follow it. Kinda shows at what is popular isn't a really good gauge to what is good music.

I gave a few examples of bands I like that I think wrote better songs. However I don't know how solid you would consider their albums, but their music appeals to me much more than what's on 90125.

your hand:
Yes - 90125 (November 7th, 1983)
Trevor Rabin Era Yes - The Best of TREY (an Anteater compilation)

read 'em and weep:
Journey - E5C4P3 (July 31, 1981)
Saga - Worlds Apart (September 1981)
The Cars - Shake It Up (November 6, 1981)
Asia - Asia (March, 1982)
Rush - Signals (September 9, 1982)
INXS - Shabooh Shoobah (October 1982)
The Fixx - Reach the Beach (May 15th, 1983)
Genesis - Genesis (October 3rd, 1983)

OccultHawk · 10-20-2017, 11:30 PM

90125 is better than all those albums except Signals.

Anteater · 10-21-2017, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

Well, it's like we are the Seussian north-going Zax and a south-going Zax who meet face to face over a Yes album. Where I use to like the album at first, and then I started noticing little things about it that annoyed me, and eventually I became less and less enthused over it, eventually out-growing it. For you it was an album that grew on you.

Sorry that your arguments didn't work on me. I can be persuaded though ... sometimes. The album "Genesis" was one in their catalog that I never really payed much attention to, until I came across Trollheart's ire for the album. Being rather stunned by his comments, and rather curious about them too, I played the album to see whether he was right or wrong. I diligently studied the album looking for any and all mistakes - not really finding any. The album became on of my favorites of theirs. "Taking It All Too Hard" is such a great song. (I will allow you to refer to it as a "Prog-Pop" song if you have the irresistible inclination to call it as such.) It didn't score high on the charts, much much lower on the charts than the singles that follow it. Kinda shows at what is popular isn't a really good gauge to what is good music.

I gave a few examples of bands I like that I think wrote better songs. However I don't know how solid you would consider their albums, but their music appeals to me much more than what's on 90125.

your hand:
Yes - 90125 (November 7th, 1983)
Trevor Rabin Era Yes - The Best of TREY (an Anteater compilation)

read 'em and weep:
Journey - E5C4P3 (July 31, 1981)
Saga - Worlds Apart (September 1981)
The Cars - Shake It Up (November 6, 1981)
Asia - Asia (March, 1982)
Rush - Signals (September 9, 1982)
INXS - Shabooh Shoobah (October 1982)
The Fixx - Reach the Beach (May 15th, 1983)
Genesis - Genesis (October 3rd, 1983)

Hey boi I got a hand too. A pimp handddd

Alan Parsons Project - Turn Of A Friendly Card (1980)
King Crimson - Discipline (1981)
Zebra - Zebra (1983)
Yes - 90125 (1983)
It Bites - Once Around The World (1988)
Giraffe - The View From Here (1988)
Tears For Fears - The Seeds Of Love (1989)

Trollheart · 10-21-2017, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Hey boi I got a hand too. A pimp handddd

Alan Parsons Project - Turn Of A Friendly Card (1980)
King Crimson - Discipline (1981)
Zebra - Zebra (1983)
Yes - 90125 (1983)
It Bites - Once Around The World (1988)
Giraffe - The View From Here (1988)
Tears For Fears - The Seeds Of Love (1989)

Trollheart · 10-21-2017, 09:42 AM

I'd also add (I have Neapolitan on ignore but I see him quoted by you and would like to set the story straight on what he says I say about Genesis, the album) that any real ire I have (being from Ireland I do have a lot of ire - take that!)

is reserved for Abacab, which I consider a truly awful album and the nadir of what was then a pretty nosediving career anyway. But Genesis has some very good tracks. My main gripe is that it sort of straddled two camps, on one hand trying to remain in the "new pop" version of the band which they dipped their toes into with Duke, and on the other hand doing their best to remain true to the their old proggy fan base, and to my mind it fell between the stools. Abacab is, imo, an awful album but at least it's unashamedly pop and doesn't pretend to be anything else. Genesis fools you by kicking off with "Mama", so you think "Ah! The Genesis I know!" and then falls off a cliff as Collins sticks his hands in his pockets and comes whistling "That's all" (an apt title if ever there was one!) at you. You're still reeling from the shock of that when "Home By the Sea/Second Home By the Sea" reinstils the old faith in you, before Collins kicks you in the balls with the abysmal "Illegal Alien". The rest of the album is actually ok, but by then I've been so in shock that I'm unlikely to recover.

Invisible Touch went more or less back to the Abacab format, they got a little back to basics with We Can't Dance (though much of it is pure pop it's good pure pop, unlike the turd that is Abacab) and then Calling All Stations had its moment but was a poor shadow of albums like Duke and Wind and Wuthering, and it was probably best they gave it all up as a bad job at that point.

Tealdear: I hate Abacab much more than I hate Genesis, though I kind of dislike both.

The Batlord · 10-21-2017, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I'd also add (I have Neapolitan on ignore but I see him quoted by you and would like to set the story straight on what he says I say about Genesis, the album) that any real ire I have (being from Ireland I do have a lot of ire - take that!)

is reserved for Abacab, which I consider a truly awful album and the nadir of what was then a pretty nosediving career anyway.

This sentence needs to be shot in the head.

10-20-2017, 08:12 AM	#304 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	fwiw I love 90125 __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

10-20-2017, 11:30 PM	#306 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	90125 is better than all those albums except Signals. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

10-21-2017, 09:42 AM	#309 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,970	I'd also add (I have Neapolitan on ignore but I see him quoted by you and would like to set the story straight on what he says I say about Genesis, the album) that any real ire I have (being from Ireland I do have a lot of ire - take that!) is reserved for Abacab, which I consider a truly awful album and the nadir of what was then a pretty nosediving career anyway. But Genesis has some very good tracks. My main gripe is that it sort of straddled two camps, on one hand trying to remain in the "new pop" version of the band which they dipped their toes into with Duke, and on the other hand doing their best to remain true to the their old proggy fan base, and to my mind it fell between the stools. Abacab is, imo, an awful album but at least it's unashamedly pop and doesn't pretend to be anything else. Genesis fools you by kicking off with "Mama", so you think "Ah! The Genesis I know!" and then falls off a cliff as Collins sticks his hands in his pockets and comes whistling "That's all" (an apt title if ever there was one!) at you. You're still reeling from the shock of that when "Home By the Sea/Second Home By the Sea" reinstils the old faith in you, before Collins kicks you in the balls with the abysmal "Illegal Alien". The rest of the album is actually ok, but by then I've been so in shock that I'm unlikely to recover. Invisible Touch went more or less back to the Abacab format, they got a little back to basics with We Can't Dance (though much of it is pure pop it's good pure pop, unlike the turd that is Abacab) and then Calling All Stations had its moment but was a poor shadow of albums like Duke and Wind and Wuthering, and it was probably best they gave it all up as a bad job at that point. Tealdear: I hate Abacab much more than I hate Genesis, though I kind of dislike both. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018