Eurovision

[Lisnaholic]

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Brits never thought of themselves as Europeans, mostly I guess because they aren't on the continent of Europe, but in reality because most English people (not saying Scottish or Welsh, but English) regard Europeans as "foreigners". Given their long history of picking a fight with any country they could, that's not very surprising. England has long believed itself superior to all of Europe (the phrase "filthy foreigners" was bandied about a lot in the 70s and 80s) and has at one time or another been at war, or in opposition to France, Germany, Holland (Netherlands duh), Spain, Portugal, Italy and probably a whole lot more besides. And Ireland of course. And Scotland. And Wales.

Yes, you are right in every detail I'm afraid, Trollheart.

Originally Posted by Guybrush

Nevermind that England was populated by Germans, French people, scandinavians of various sorts and live in a country littered with roman ruins. So much for not being a part of Europe.

This is also true, Guybrush. Good point.

I'm reluctant to argue against Marie and Guybrush, but perhaps you're both overlooking an innocent semantic fact about "Europe": it's a word we all use, but its definition isn't precise. In fact, surely our meaning of Europe shifts around depending on whether we are talking about races&tribes, physical geography, culture, NATO, the EU or the Eurovision Song Contest. Each Europe is largely the same, but a little bit different, especially round the edges. But, yeah, by almost every parameter, England is part of Europe.

But I said "innocent semantic fact" because I had in mind the way adults and children in the UK casually refer to Europe as being somewhere that isn't Britain: "I went to Europe on holiday." "My dad is working in Europe". I suppose it would be more accurate to say "Continental Europe" or "the Continent" (which was once a common term, but less so today, I suspect.)
But it's not always chauvanistic or silly; the idea that Great Britain and Europe are distinct is reinforced by the fact that (pre Channel Tunnel) the only way to get from one to the other was by boat or airplane.

I'd be very interested to know what they say in Norway if they want to refer quickly to the bits of Europe south of Scandanavia: do you have a word for that?
I also wonder what happens in places like Madagascar: Do they discuss there whether they are part of Africa or not ?

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

[..]nthe idea that Great Britain and Europe are distinct is reinforced by the fact that (pre Channel Tunnel) the only way to get from one to the other was by boat or airplane.

I get this, but England is not unique in this sense. You have Iceland, of course. Here, in south of Norway, there technically IS a land bridge if you travel way north and into Finland and down the east side of of the baltic sea - in other words a long ass way. The reasonable way to get to England or other countries southwards is by boat or plane, so it's not much different. The distance we have to cover by sea is also longer than Dover / Calais.

Through much of Norwegian history, people have had relatively little dealings with southern european nations since the viking age. Norway came under danish rule for about 400 years starting sometime after the black plague. Then it was under swedish rule for a while. For most of this time, royalty, nobility, eventually universities etc. existed in Denmark and Sweden, but not Norway which was more just a relatively isolated backwater of farmers, fishers, lumberers and the like.

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

I'd be very interested to know what they say in Norway if they want to refer quickly to the bits of Europe south of Scandanavia: do you have a word for that?

The only one I can think of is "Syden" which is a bit like "the south", but which generally means popular tourist spots you go on vacation where it's warm, like around the mediterranean. Mallorca or Crete are good examples, but the term is not Europe specific.

There is no usage of the word/name Europe here in which it doesn't also include Norway and we don't talk about or consider Europe as something we're not part of. When we talk about other european nations, we tend to be specific. For example, we don't simply travel to Europe. We're going to Austria by way of Denmark and Germany.

Maybe there's something to England having had so many dealings with other European nations on the level of nobility, royalty, trade, politics, war, diplomacy, etc. while still being separated that somehow ironically adds to this feeling of or need for separation?

[Lisnaholic]

You're right, Guybrush; Iceland and Norway are either physically or historically more isolated from Europe - especially as the "technical land bridge" that you mention presumably occurs to no-one when they are planning a trip from Oslo to Hamburg!

Originally Posted by Guybrush

The only one I can think of is "Syden" which is a bit like "the south", but which generally means popular tourist spots you go on vacation where it's warm, like around the mediterranean. Mallorca or Crete are good examples, but the term is not Europe specific.

There is no usage of the word/name Europe here in which it doesn't also include Norway and we don't talk about or consider Europe as something we're not part of. When we talk about other european nations, we tend to be specific. For example, we don't simply travel to Europe. We're going to Austria by way of Denmark and Germany.

Thanks for these answers: the bit in bold suggests that Norwegians have a clarity of word-use and therefore perspective that Brits are still fumbling over.

Maybe there's something to England having had so many dealings with other European nations on the level of nobility, royalty, trade, politics, war, diplomacy, etc. while still being separated that somehow ironically adds to this feeling of or need for separation?

Yes, so much of England's history with Continental Europe is told in terms of war, invasion, etc that we get rather stuck with an "us and them" attitude. Even in something less politically charged, like the history of architecture, we learn about "Renaissance Europe", which is earlier, and different from "The English Renaissance".

[Trollheart]

Their natural xenophonia and sense of superiority, and the British Empire all aside, I think the main argument for Britain not being part of Europe is a physical and hard-to-argue one: they're an island, as has been mentioned. You can, if you so wish, take a train, drive or even should you have the time and energy, walk from any country in Europe to any other. Try that starting from England and your car better be amphibious, or you better be wearing a snorkel!

[rubber soul]

You could swim the English Channel, you know. Gertrude Ederle did it.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Trollheart

You can, if you so wish, take a train, drive or even should you have the time and energy, walk from any country in Europe to any other.

From Iceland?

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Try that starting from England and your car better be amphibious, or you better be wearing a snorkel!

Well, not if you're visiting the european countries Wales or Scotland.

Sorry for the nitpicks

[Marie Monday]

I get you point lisna, but actually Europe is defined precisely (or at least precisely enough to include the UK beyond any ambiguity) All the other things such as the EU that are loosely called 'europe' are just not the definition. To use the term Europe in a loose way is very understandable of course, similar to calling the Netherlands Holland; that's fine. But it should be just that, arguments or sentiments that are based on it just always seem to be bad news

[Trollheart]

Originally Posted by rubber soul

You could swim the English Channel, you know. Gertrude Ederle did it.

Not if you can't swim.

Originally Posted by Guybrush

From Iceland?



Well, not if you're visiting the european countries Wales or Scotland.

Sorry for the nitpicks

Yeah sorry, I should say "the continent of Europe", to differentiate from all the countries, or as Slartibartfast put it in The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the little fiddly bits around the edges, that make up what's accepted to be Europe, or the European Union. Interestingly, Europe was originally known by three different names: the "Continent" (by those outside it), "The Common Market" and later the EEC, or European Economic Community.

Same way as we tend to say "Ireland" when we mean the Republic, or south of the border, and "The island of Ireland" when we mean the whole landmass.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Jorge23j

Who watches Eurovision now? There are awful songs with the rarely exceptions as Italians last year.

People also watch it for the bad songs.