so... free will? (techno, cover, quote, hands)

right-track · 01-05-2009, 03:45 PM

Big.

Sneer · 01-05-2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

what does the universe look like when no-one is looking at it?

Is this a question to me?

cardboard adolescent · 01-05-2009, 04:02 PM

to anyone who believes that there is an objective universe seperate from consciousness

Sneer · 01-05-2009, 04:16 PM

The universe maintains an objective existence... its just separate from human observation. But, although we cant directly view it, through science man is attaining a better understanding of the universe day by day. Rand states that rationality is mans greatest attribute and only survival mechanism... science of course is grounded in the notion of rationality and that is how we make our advancements.

cardboard adolescent · 01-05-2009, 05:14 PM

thats wonderful, but you're completely ignoring the question. what rosy picture ayn rand has drawn of science doesn't really concern me, it seems like the two main accomplishments of science were to make humans more efficient at placating and murdering each other.

Sneer · 01-05-2009, 05:29 PM

Of course it answers your question, you asked how one can see the universe, i answered we cant first hand, obviously, but science and the technological advancements it generates allows us to see and learn more about it everyday.

And if by placating you mean improving the quality of life drastically, quite.

cardboard adolescent · 01-05-2009, 05:32 PM

i didn't ask how one can see the universe, i asked what does the universe look like when nobody is looking at it. the question is obviously a paradox. when there is no act of perception nothing is being perceived. to think of the object without a subject is an absurdity. i also didn't say appeasing, i said placating. you say it improves the quality of life, but if you were living in the gaza strip or if you'd ever experienced mustard gas you might disagree.

streetwaves · 01-05-2009, 05:52 PM

so are we done with free will?

Sneer · 01-05-2009, 05:52 PM

To placate means to appease. Obviously it has negative implications... im fully aware of this. But when my brother goes to the prosthetician and he says we have a new arm for you that has been developed by scientists wherein it reacts to messages being sent from your brain, allowing grip and finger movement, and he doesnt have to wear what can best be described as a brick from his elbow down anymore... or when a couple cannot conceive naturally but, thanks to IVF, are able to have a kid... or when somebody is told they have cancer and, thanks to the treatments being discovered by science, are able to survive it...

cardboard adolescent · 01-05-2009, 06:01 PM

i could give just as many counter examples of technology leading to pain and suffering. yes, we should all worship rand and pray for a world where all suffering is replaced with ennui. this is all completely beside the point; any statement regarding progress and truth especially in regard to technology and science is a limited perspective. thats the larger issue, the question of perspectivism and relativity--for every 'positive' viewpoint you assume (which thinly conceals a philosophy centered around the fear of death) i can retort with a negative one. to form an objective 'picture' of the universe one has to step outside onself, and it is only inside the self that pictures are possible.

01-05-2009, 04:16 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sneer Let it drip Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5,430	The universe maintains an objective existence... its just separate from human observation. But, although we cant directly view it, through science man is attaining a better understanding of the universe day by day. Rand states that rationality is mans greatest attribute and only survival mechanism... science of course is grounded in the notion of rationality and that is how we make our advancements. __________________ LastFM Sneer's Emporium of Sound Fright Team radio show

01-05-2009, 05:29 PM	#16 (permalink)
Sneer Let it drip Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5,430	Of course it answers your question, you asked how one can see the universe, i answered we cant first hand, obviously, but science and the technological advancements it generates allows us to see and learn more about it everyday. And if by placating you mean improving the quality of life drastically, quite. __________________ LastFM Sneer's Emporium of Sound Fright Team radio show

01-05-2009, 05:52 PM	#18 (permalink)
streetwaves Music Addict Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 267	so are we done with free will? __________________ rateyourmusic

01-05-2009, 05:52 PM	#19 (permalink)
Sneer Let it drip Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5,430	To placate means to appease. Obviously it has negative implications... im fully aware of this. But when my brother goes to the prosthetician and he says we have a new arm for you that has been developed by scientists wherein it reacts to messages being sent from your brain, allowing grip and finger movement, and he doesnt have to wear what can best be described as a brick from his elbow down anymore... or when a couple cannot conceive naturally but, thanks to IVF, are able to have a kid... or when somebody is told they have cancer and, thanks to the treatments being discovered by science, are able to survive it... __________________ LastFM Sneer's Emporium of Sound Fright Team radio show

01-05-2009, 03:45 PM	#11 (permalink)
right-track Atchin' Akai Join Date: May 2005 Location: Unamerica Posts: 8,723	Big.

01-05-2009, 04:02 PM	#13 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	to anyone who believes that there is an objective universe seperate from consciousness

01-05-2009, 05:14 PM	#15 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	thats wonderful, but you're completely ignoring the question. what rosy picture ayn rand has drawn of science doesn't really concern me, it seems like the two main accomplishments of science were to make humans more efficient at placating and murdering each other.

01-05-2009, 05:32 PM	#17 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	i didn't ask how one can see the universe, i asked what does the universe look like when nobody is looking at it. the question is obviously a paradox. when there is no act of perception nothing is being perceived. to think of the object without a subject is an absurdity. i also didn't say appeasing, i said placating. you say it improves the quality of life, but if you were living in the gaza strip or if you'd ever experienced mustard gas you might disagree.

01-05-2009, 06:01 PM	#20 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	i could give just as many counter examples of technology leading to pain and suffering. yes, we should all worship rand and pray for a world where all suffering is replaced with ennui. this is all completely beside the point; any statement regarding progress and truth especially in regard to technology and science is a limited perspective. thats the larger issue, the question of perspectivism and relativity--for every 'positive' viewpoint you assume (which thinly conceals a philosophy centered around the fear of death) i can retort with a negative one. to form an objective 'picture' of the universe one has to step outside onself, and it is only inside the self that pictures are possible.