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Originally Posted by starrynight
I think it's more than perhaps, it happens all the time in all genres. And people look at these opinions as being objective when really it is a matter of opinion often. It's very hard to say who exactly did something first, how exactly do you define that something for instance. And influence is complex, more than one person is involved in an influence on someone's music. And I just care whether I like the music or not anyway. Where you place something in a history of music is an opinion, history is not objective it is selective in how it deals with things.
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You're correct, it is hard to ascertain who did something first, and yes - influence is hard to properly measure. Nobody is disputing that. When I talk about influence, I prefer to think of it as simply, which bands did band X like the most? Who were they 'inspired' by. This, you can find out simply by knowing some basic things about the band, such as by reading their interviews, any books about them, or even speaking to the band themselves.
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Well it obviously isn't mainstream music. But some of those who don't like it have obviously listened to other shoegaze or even music which could be classified as using noise / ambient aspects. I've heard these styles of music.
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The majority of people I've come across who are into shoegaze would still place Loveless in their top shoegaze albums. Loveless may be the most popular, but I'd say it's a lot less accessible an album than something by say, Slowdive or Ride - the fact it has achieved the status it has is a testament to how good it is. Ride are much more straight-up rock than MBV, and the same applies to Swervedriver, for example. I've heard almost all the shoegaze bands of the 90s that achieved any sort of lasting recognition, and while my favourite is Slowdive, I'd still regard MBV as second best. They are far from being merely an "introductory" band.
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Other people weren't an influence on shoegaze?? Ride, Slowdive, Galaxie 500, Cocteau Twins, no doubt others. Ambient music goes back quite a bit, noise music has been around for quite a while (before Throbbing Gristle even I expect). Some of these things may have even started outside of popular music in classical or experimental fields. Just because people are less aware of these doesn't mean they might not be good or important. Surely MBV had their own influences? Everybody has their own influences really, nobody starts something from nothing.
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Of course, shoegaze had a variety of influences. MBV themselves, had their influences - in 1990 though, there was nothing like Loveless. If you can find anything like it, let me know... I daresay MBV did like Galaxie 500 and they certainly liked the Cocteau Twins, but Loveless expands on that sound in a big way. Much more textured, layered and with less prominent vocals. It was the album that most other shoegaze bands tried to emulate (by their own admission, often).
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That is a VERY subjective comment and way of putting it. Better to say they have gathered alot of respect over the years. But that doesn't mean there can't be room for other opinions.
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"MBV were the kings of the scene" - that's a direct quote from a Creation Records documentary I've seen. I can't remember which band said it (it was either Slowdive or the Telescopes), but when shoegaze was in full flow in the early 90s, MBV were almost universally regarded as the best on record, and the best live (although Ride were also amazing live, apparently). Of course there's room for other opinions - not everyone can like the same things - but when their shoegaze peers are all lining up on video to pay tribute, then it's obvious how important MBV were to that scene.
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Maybe they have been or maybe it is just cool to mention MBV. Everybody knows fashion is at the heart of popular music, it guides people's opinions and styles, that's why the style of popular music has changed so much other the last 50 years. Frankly I'd like to make my own judgement that let someone else do it for me. And aren't people often part of a scene anyway, people who influence each other and grow together with a style?
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Forgive me for saying this, but why are you so overly cynical about this? When noise artists like Nadja and Wolf Eyes, psychedelic rock bands like Bardo Pond, indie bands like Sebadoh and GBV, among so many more - when these artists say they were inspired by MBV, do you really think they're all saying that because it's "cool" to mention the band? Was Brian Eno just being "cool" when he said Loveless was one of the most creative rock albums ever made? I myself, loved the album so much I wanted to start a band and play similar music - I just lacked the means to do so. I didn't want to do it because I thought MBV were "cool" - to the contrary, they were the kind of band I didn't want my friends to know I liked, because of the weird and unconventional way they sounded (I was a teenager, mind).
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What matters more though to me is what someone does with that influence. JC Bach greatly influenced Mozart, does that mean he is greater than Mozart? NO.
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This is what I am saying, too. That's why I mentioned the Sex Pistols and New York Dolls - they influenced a host of punk/post-punk bands, but while I dislike those two bands, some of the bands influenced by them are amongst my favourites. That's what's fascinating - how a unique and talented band can use the music they've previously enjoyed, and create something which may have similarities, but is something almost totally new and unique all the same. I can think of few better examples of bands who have done that in the past 25 years, than MBV with Loveless.