Quote:
Originally Posted by crukster
I'm not disputing that someone could be Jewish and UU, or Muslim and UU or whatever so forth, and I agree one could probably be Sufi and UU.
I don't however believe someone could truthfully be atheist and UU.
Because what many atheists in this thread have agreed on, is that atheist is the word for the religious world's opinion of you. Well surely if you start tackling ideas which are common to you and them, whilst following UU, they would call you a Unitarian Universalist.
|
I'm glad we both agree that someone could observe a religious faith and
also be a Unitarian Universalist. I feel it is helpful to see where we have common ground in our thinking...before we figure out where our thoughts differ.
I feel your disbelief that someone could truthfully be "atheist" and "Unitarian Universalist" reflects your opinion about what these terms mean but doesn't accurately reflect reality, Crukster.
I know that some Unitarian Universalists believe in god(s) (I'd call these people "theists"), and some lack a belief in any gods or do not believe in any gods (I'd call these people "atheists," and many Unitarian Universalists self-identify as atheists), and some Unitarian Universalists believe it is unknowable whether or not gods exist (I'd call these people "agnostics"). Unitarian Universalists also include many other people, too, who hold a wide variety of other beliefs.
I do agree with you, though, that within people within a Unitarian Universalist Fellowship would probably refer to an atheist member as a "Unitarian Universalist" and wouldn't split UU people into subclasses, but this doesn't mean that a UU person can't also self-identify as an atheist.
You say you think many atheists feel the term "atheist" is applied to them by outsiders. While some atheists may not identify themselves as "atheists" and are indeed labeled as you suggest, some atheists *do* identify their beliefs as atheistic because that is the simplest statement of their viewpoint: they lack a belief in gods or do not believe in gods. This says nothing about how they *feel* about religions, which brings me to your next statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by crukster
atheism is irrelevant. Ultimatly either you're for theism or against.
|
I think again that you may be assuming atheism has a deeper emotional meaning than it does in reality.
It sounds to me as if you think "
atheism" equals "
anti-theism," and while some atheists may also be anti-theists, this is not always the case.
For example, some atheists may be anti-theism occasionally, while other atheists may have a variety of feelings about religions, including longing.
You could
even have an atheist who sometimes is anti-theism, and yet sometimes feels longing for certain theist beliefs to be true. (That would best describe *my* feelings as an atheist. As for my
beliefs, I believe no gods exist, but I feel the possibility that gods exist can't be disproven using the scientific method.)
In other words, more options exist besides the "either you're for theism or against" dichotomy that you have set up, just as there are all sorts of shades of gray and colors in addition to black and white.
I feel "atheism," "non-theist," and "agnosticism" are defined well, which to me means accurately, in the following quote from an essay, "If there is a God," written by a Unitarian Universalist (who identifies herself as an agnostic):
Quote:
Atheist: Someone who does not believe in God. There are many distinctions you can make among atheists—strong, weak, implicit, explicit, practical, theological—but the two major ones are strong atheism vs. weak atheism. A strong Atheist believes it is certain and clear that there is no God. A weak Atheist does not believe in God, but doesn’t assert the lack of God.
Non-theist: Someone who does not assert a belief in God. I include Agnostics, Atheists, most Buddhists, and many others in this group. I generally reserve the term “Atheist” for the group that is really strong Atheists, and use “non-theists” as the catch-all term.
Agnostic: Someone who does not know whether or not God exists. A weak Agnostic does not know if there is a God, but may feel they are still weighing evidence or will receive more evidence. A strong Agnostic believes it’s ultimately unknowable whether or not God exists.
uuworld.org : if there is a god . . .
|
What I hope you'll see from these definitions is that the defintion of "atheist" does not include any requirement that a "member of atheism" either wants to support or wants to dismantle religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crukster
I don't either, not person anyway. And not the idea, only the Truth upon which it's based. I'm talking about the Universal energy of all existence. I know those terms are crude and generic. I'm hardly an expert on the idea, and tbh it's mostly self-formed. What I am getting at is there is a Universal commonality to all existence, or else we wouldnt be able to converse like this, we wouldnt even see each other, perceive, let alone understand. It'd be nothing, or at least, sole; alone.
Maybe that is our ultimate fate. Who knows.
In there here and now though, we are all here, we are all now. What I believe is God is the collective energy, will and power of us all. And capability; promise.
|
I understand and agree with what you are saying about a universal commonality to all existence: you are not just a solitary thinking and feeling being alone in the universe. I *do* perceive and understand you because I have a feeling of existing that I assume is similar to yours.
I also perceive we are surrounded by trillions of beings who see and perceive and understand each other to various degrees (I am including humanity and other living beings). I feel it is amazing (but not a miracle) that we are part of the life with which our planet is teeming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crukster
I definitly believe in autonamy as well. But I believe life is not about having a freefall toward nothing, shedding as many ties as possible. I believe, life is about thinking ideas and purposes that you choose to commit yourself fully, to pledge to, to live for.
Understanding through Autonomy.
Not the opposite.
To clarify I don't have a problem when people intefere in the World in general, I have a problem with atheists intefering.
For example, if the World was completely atheist, and I didn't like how it was being run, I wouldn't call myself
"aatheist"
thats not a typo the double a is intentional. I would say
"I don't like your World. I'm gonna burn it up and build my own one."
If that's what people think of this World, they should be honest. I dunno if at's at the point of burning up, but I definitly do not really like the World as it is today.
This is off topic again anyway, I apologise.
|
From reading the above, Crukster, I'm thinking that what really bugs you about the term "atheist" is that you feel it is not a positive statement of what an atheist *does* believe.
I think a majority of atheists would want to protect the current world and save what they like about it (rather than "burn" it), just like I think the majority of religious people wouldn't want to be "a-atheists" who hope to burn a hypothetical predominantly atheist world.
I agree with you that there is much not to like about the world as it is today. In many ways life certainly doesn't fit *my* ideal of what existence would be like. In other ways, the world is much more wonderful than anything I think I could have imagined on my own.
My main complaints about existence: I don't like all the suffering in the world and I don't like mortality.
I can't stop mortality from happening, but I can try to prevent or reduce suffering and and I can try not to contribute to suffering.
That's how my 'faith' as a strong atheist manifests itself: if there is no heaven, no god, no life after death, then I want to try to make this life that we *know* exists a little more "heaven-like." So then instead of discussing what heaven
after death might be like, I can discuss and debate with people about what we feel heaven
on earth *before* death would be like and how we can work together to help more beings experience "heaven on earth" in the here and now.