VEGANGELICA

Your question about whether your two super-long favorites, "November Rain" and "Estranged," are structured differently from many long songs you don't like has made me curious myself. So I looked more closely at the musical form of "November Rain" to see how it might relate to your affection for the song.

Now that I've watched the video, studied the lyrics, and read a little about the song online, I have summarized below the reasons I think you may like the song even though it is much longer than the majority of the songs you prefer. This might be my most epic post of all!

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(1) Yes, I'd say "November Rain" *does* appear to be part of a song cycle (Song cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), a group of songs that are connected in some way thematically and/or musically.

I read that "Don't Cry," "November Rain," and "Estranged" are part of a song or video trio based on Del James' short story "Without You." Yet I observe that one can understand each song individually without needing to listen to the others because they are free-standing songs, each complete in itself.

I remember you commented about not liking groups of songs that require you to listen to all of them to get the whole story. I think I also recall that you like lyrics that leave something to the imagination. So, perhaps "November Rain" is especially interesting to you because it may relate loosely to the subject matter of other songs by Guns n' Roses, yet also makes you wonder what is happening within the "November Rain" story itself.

I also read that the same drum fill is used in all three songs, suggesting some musical overlap that makes them part of a cycle of songs:

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(2) I diagrammed "November Rain" to learn about its form and was surprised to realize that it seems to lack a single, clear chorus, and sometimes places instrumental solos where I might expect a chorus to be. Instead, the song seemed to have several pre-choruses, which make the song seem to be leading up to some resolution always ahead of me in the song. These "pre-choruses" kept making me think the song is about to tip over to a definite chorus, which would provide a strong feeling of resolution. I think this expectation of something to come (that doesn't) helps make the song feel as if it moves forward quickly.

Here is my diagram of the musical form of "November Rain":

Intro - piano shifts to strings that play a melody foreshadowing the vocals.

Verse 1/Chorus 1 - ends with the hook, "Cold November rain," which gives a local resolution of tension in the song (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_(music)). Notice that they only use this memorable "hook" three times in the song. This supports my idea that doing something more than three times in a song risks boring people! I think the last two lines of the verse, "Nothin' lasts forever and we both know hearts can change / And it's hard to hold a candle in the cold November rain," are probably the chorus, although the words (except for "cold November rain") are different in the three repetitions of this melody that one hears in the song. What's important is that musically it wasn't clear to me whether the hook is part of a verse or a chorus. This made the song more interesting than it might have been if it had an obvious chorus...such as a chorus where the lyrics are exactly the same every time you hear it.

Verse 2/Chorus 2 - also ends with the hook, "Cold November rain." This verse contains more words than Verse 1, and they are sung more quickly such that the energy increases from Verse 1 to Verse 2. This helps move the song forward.

Pre-chorus 1A - begins with "Do you need some time on your own?" I went back and forth trying to decide if I felt *this* was the chorus or not, since it is repeated with a slight variation two times, and then shows up later at the end of the song in modified lyrics. I decided to call it a "pre-chorus" because of the sound of the music, which doesn't feel fully settled and self-contained. The lines feel like they are leading to something else. For example, listen to the strings in the background, playing rising scales that get higher and higher ending in a tremolo. The strings are building tension that is not resolved.

Pre-chorus 2 - begins with "I know it's hard to keep an open heart" and ends with "Wouldn't time be out to charm you?" This didn't feel like simply a verse, and it isn't a chorus, so I call it a second, unique pre-chorus.

Instrumental solo 1 - a guitar solo. Notice that it is short, yet it serves to break up the song, giving variety. I feel that this instrumental solo occurs where I might have expected a chorus to be (based on the building tension of the phrases that came before).

Pre-chorus 1B - begins with "Sometimes I need some time on my own," and so it is a variation of the previous Pre-chorus 1, yet it ends with the same words, "Don't you know you need some time all alone," so that gives a feeling of repetition and helps the song hang together. Listen carefully and again you can hear the strings in the background, leading upward and forward, increasing tension until it is resolved in the following solo:

Instrumental solo 2 - another short guitar solo (which I didn't expect), breaking up the song yet again, which prevents it from feeling monotonous.

Verse 3/Chorus 3 - begins with "and when your fears subside and shadows still remain" and ends with the third repeat of the hook, "Cold November rain." (I especially like the strings being plucked during the last two lines of this section.)

Now the song makes a major shift around the 7:00 minute mark and ends with 2 minutes of music that sound similar to, but also distinct from, the more mournful music up to that point:

Long instrumental Solo 3 and Outro - begins with piano and develops into a wailing, strong guitar solo while overlapping lyrics reminiscent of Pre-chorus 1 are sung in a low chant (beginning "Don't ya think that you need somebody?) in a verse that is repeated 3 1/2 times.

Finished!

^ After considering the song carefully, what struck me as unique about it (compared to many pop songs I hear) is that it seemed to lack a clear vocal high point or chorus, and instead had instrumental guitar solos where I would have expected a chorus based on build-ups in the lyrics. Some songs are very easy and obvious to diagram, but this one made me debate with myself quite a lot. The song's form reminds me a little of waves on a beach where they start coming in faster and faster as the tide is coming in...building up to a giant wash of water at the end.

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(3) "November Rain" has some memorable musical passages and details that are unpredictable and therefore make the song more interesting.

For example, look at when and how often the melancholy singing of "ahh ahh ahh ahh" occurs in Verse 1 compared to Verse 2:

"When I look into your eyes, I can see a love restrained (ahh ahh ahh ahh)
But darlin' when I hold you, don't you know I feel the same? (ahh ahh ahh ahh)
Nothin' lasts forever and we both know hearts can change (no singing)
And it's hard to hold a candle in the cold November rain (no singing)"

Yet in Verse 2, "ahh ahh ahh ahh" is sung after the first three lines rather than just the first two. This relieves a sense of monotony that can be caused by predictability. It is a subtle difference, but with enough subtle differences like that, a song can feel refreshing rather than stagnant.

The strings, as I mentioned, are also up to some fancy work in the background that helps add variety throughout the song such as during the "pre-choruses."

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(4) The lyrics include almost no identical lines up through around minute 7 in the song when the part that I call the "outro" begins. The only repeated lines during the main body of the song are these..."Everybody needs some time on their own/ Don't you know you need some time all alone?"...which occur twice within the song.

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(5) I've just been considering the form of the song until now, but I suspect for you a big reason the song is appealing is you may like its meaning and the song's overall melancholy yet not hopeless feeling.

I see this love ballad as being about the struggle to risk investing oneself in loving someone when there is no guarantee of permanence. The song says that one can find true happiness if one does the daring thing: love each other whole-heartedly, without restraint.

The song ends with a hopeful encouragement: that this couple might find a way to love each other without letting the fear of loss tomorrow dampen the love of today. My favorite line is, "So if you want to love me then darlin' don't refrain." The song suggests this might be a possibility.

The song often sounds sad to me, especially due to the descending "ahh ahh ahh ahh" vocal motif, reminding the listener constantly of the sorrow of loss. I feel the song as a whole reflects a sad truth about love: the greater the love and the more freely it is given to someone, the greater the sorrow when the relationship ends (such as through the beloved's death or suicide, as in the song).

I must confess that I've never gravitated toward "November Rain" because of its slow ballad sound, but like with most things, the more I learn about and understand it, the more I like it. Learning about the story upon which the song is based (a woman hurt by her partner's infidelity kills herself, leaving him in grief and guilt) was interesting.

I listened to "November Rain" around 5 times, trying to figure out its form. I found that I didn't get bored listening to it, either. I don't much like the melodramatic video, though, partly because I detest that wedding dress!

Now I'm interested in "Estranged," which I listened to once and didn't find as compelling as "November Rain," but I just read on Wikipedia that "it has many verses, no set chorus, and several distinguished guitar and piano solos,"...which suggests its musical form might be similar to "November Rain's."

Here's the Guns N' Roses "November Rain" video I listened to (in case there are many versions of the song):


Guns N' Roses - November Rain - YouTube

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