VEGANGELICA

Pursuingchange, I'm sorry about all the name-calling, sarcasm, and mockery, including an accusation of mental illness, that people have used in this thread.

I wish a discussion about music, which I think most of us like very much, wouldn't lead to expressions of hostility by so many individuals as misunderstandings and disagreements lead to frustration.

People in this thread do not represent the community as a whole, so please do not assume you aren't wanted here.

I noticed that the first name-calling was done by a mod (http://www.musicbanter.com/general-m...ml#post1260500) and I apologize that you or anyone at this community who is trying to have a discussion about music has been called names, which always exaggerate and thus are inaccurate. For example, I might be an arse in a few instances, but a total arse is probably a slight exaggeration!

I'll give you my thoughts on your original question that you restated here:

I view your topic as containing three distinct questions that need to be answered in order to have a clearer debate:

(1) How do we decide the degree of innovation that music shows? Without answering this, we can't answer the second question:
(2) Have musicians stopped making large music innovations in the last 30 years, having hit a creative wall?
(3) Have there been musicians during the last 30 years who inspired large shifts in music by popularizing a sound or style such that many people were inspired to copy them?

Below are my answers to these questions:

(1) Deciding the size of an innovation is subjective, so we'll probably find little agreement on this issue among a large number of people, which makes answering your main question difficult. Here's my answer, though:

I think there are two types of musical innovations: new instruments, and new patterns of sound. I feel the four large innovations in musical instruments happened many years ago and are the invention of woodwind, string, and percussive instruments, and the use of synthesizers to make sound. Stylistically, we have two basic types of music: melody-based music and beat-based music, and combinations thereof.

Since these inventions, I feel that every music invention/innovation has been incremental rather than a sea change.

For example, I view the style of shred guitar as a small innovation, and not really much of an innovation since shredding is like a chaotic classical music cadenza solo, and a whammy bar just exaggerates bending of strings that is typical in violin vibrato.

I agree with you that rock guitar solos (that I've heard) haven't changed much in the last 30 years. One reason is that our fingers are close together and work fastest when moving one after the other, which results in guitarists often playing short, repetitive arpeggios (which I hear frequently in shred guitar). Unless people use very atypical tunings, or the shape of people's hands and arms change (like if we grew a third arm!), we'll tend to hear similar melodies and patterns of notes coming out of a typical guitar.

One issue I saw raised by you and debated is whether innovative music will become well-known and a household name, such that the size of an innovation can be measured by its popularity. I don't think it is true that innovative music will necessarily become well-known. Music that one person plays but no one copies can still be innovative...just maybe nobody hears it or likes it! I feel that popular music is *inspiring* music but doesn't necessarily have to be particularly innovative.

For example, guitar shredding (according to Wikipedia) was first heard in the music of Scorpion's Ulrich Roth, but Eddie Van Halen's use of shredding inspired more people to take notice of this style. So EVH didn't invent shredding and was not the innovator, but he inspired more people to appreciate it.

Similarly, the moonwalk was invented decades before Michael Jackson displayed and popularized it. I've always been underwhelmed by MJ's persona, dancing, and music, which never struck me as massively innovative. (I've lost mittens as a child, too, so the one-glove thing never wow'd me.) He did inspire many people, though, and became well-known around the world. I never liked his music, so I wasn't inspired to want to copy him in any way, but others seemed to be.

So an inspiring musician is not necessarily an innovative musician. I suspect commercial and popular music doesn't usually reflect the most innovative music because people tend to like to copy what is popular, so music that differs too much from the current norm might not appeal to a wide audience. So unless one listens to a wide variety of musicians, one may miss innovative ideas. I agree with Surell's point here:

(2) During the last 3 decades, I feel that musical innovations have been small and incremental, so I do not feel there have been major musical innovations...but definitely there have been many smaller changes, and with enough of them music continues to diverge into trends or sounds that I hear as different compared to the music created earlier.

An example is the genre of Dubstep, which sounds very distinct to me compared to other music, and apparently has its origins as a genre around 1998. I'd never heard of Dubstep before I joined MB, but as soon as I heard it I felt this genre of music sounded different than any other music I'd heard before...low, pulsing, menacing, driving. Since I can hear a song and classify it as Dubstep, this suggests to me that it required innovation to create it, because I *hear* a difference.

In comparison, I don't feel rap music is particularly innovative, because many hundreds of years ago there were bards roving around speaking lyrical poetry, which is basically rap.

I agree most closely with Rock N' Roll Clown's answer below, because I feel that innovations in music are continuing and music has not reached the end of its creative possibilities. People still tweak and create instruments that allow different sound combinations, and music styles continue to change:

You can read about experimental musical instruments made in the 1990s and 2000s here: Experimental musical instrument - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(3) I feel that during the past 30 years there have been musicians who have inspired major changes in music genres, but this may be harder to tell or appreciate because there are so many more people listening to and creating music than 30 years ago, so it is harder for a musician to corner the market.

Just using one country as an example, the U.S. population has increased by 100 million in that time period. That's a lot more listeners and musicians, and that's in one country alone. (What's happened to music in India during that time period?) The style of listening to music has changed, too, so that it is harder for one musician to gain wide public attention because so many different musicians' music is available for easy consumption.

Lady Gaga comes to mind as the biggest superstar recently whose style/music combination has probably achieved very high household name recognition around the globe. Her clothing style is definitely innovative, although her music may not be, but I think she has made many people feel greater appreciation of music as a performing art. Do you view Lady Gaga as inspiring or innovative (or both)?

I already mentioned Dubstep as a distinct genre that *I* feel is original enough to feel distinctive and unique to me. And Urban Hatemonger mentioned some guy I've never heard of, but I trust UH's judgment that the musician inspired a shift in his music genre. Just because I haven't heard of that musician doesn't mean he isn't doing something new.

Pursuingchange, you wrote:

^ I feel you may not be distinguishing between *inspiring* musicians who cause others to admire and copy them, vs. *innovative* musicians (who may or may not inspire others and become popular). For example, I don't know if John Lennon, Michael Jackson and EVH were particularly innovative, according to my definition of innovative [see my answer to (1)].

I do have confidence that music will continue to evolve or change for as long as humans survive into the future as new ideas, tweaking of old ideas, and fads come and go. Consider also that because humans (including their brains/minds) are continuing to evolve, in the far future people may appreciate different styles of music than they now tend to appreciate, since our perceptions, attention spans, etc., will probably subtly change as the millennia pass.

I wouldn't underestimate the creativity of people. They're crafty critters.

Your turn, if you wish.

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