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Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth
my point was basically that when people say "it's cultural" they are trying to separate 'culture' from 'islam' as if they are two separate entities. in reality they are tightly intertwined.
it's a common talking point, specifically from muslims, to write off any aspects of islamic culture that get criticized as something that is just inherent to the cultures in islamic countries. like if you talk about how islam isn't really that progressive towards women they will say "oh, well did you know that actually islam was a step forward for women's rights in 7th century arbia? those crazy pagans used to bury their daughters alive!" well congrats on being better than 7th century bedouin pagans, islam. i like how it's not considered bigoted to just regard arab culture as backwards and oppressive towards women but it's somehow 'islamaphobic' to make the same charge against islamic ideology.
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Well if they're not consistent across different Muslim majority countries, I don't view it as an Islamic issue. I see it as an issue specific to that country. They may use Islam to further their prospects (good or bad), but I don't think Islam itself the issue here because you could do that with any religion.
And don't forget that Islam was a major step forward for women in comparison to the rest of Europe as well.
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it seems like your point is that islam is a diverse religion with many different sects, so i shouldn't treat it so singularly with terms like 'mainstream islam.' i'll concede that point if that's all you're concerned about, but i don't think it undermines the gist of what i'm saying here. i mean you can make similar generic statements about 'christianity' which is every bit as diverse as islam.
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Not to mention that the region you're associating with "mainstream Islam" doesn't even account for a quarter of the world's population of Muslims.
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on the flipside you probably think of religious fundamentalists from the south as backwards as well. but that's a safe opinion since they're largely white
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Ugh, quit with that ****. I think Batlord said it earlier but you're not debating Sansa. I was just saying that different cultures aren't always going to agree on how the other lives, Islamic or not.
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specific instructions for how to live your life and more generally for how to govern an islamic caliphate. yea, there are interpretive differences etc. but historically this basic idea of an islamic caliphate with sharia law is a more or less straight forward implementation of islam. it's not just a wacky idea that some extremists have... the historical precedent for islam as both a religion and a political institution extends all the way back to muhammad himself.
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I'm aware with how politics are intertwined with Islam, it's the key reason for the Sunni/Shii split (which isn't quite the long and arduous conflict that the media would have you believe). It's not as straightforward as you would think, especially considering that the language that the texts are written are ambiguous and linguistically archaic. Plus since Islam doesn't currently have an accepted caliph, the straightforwardness is diluted even further. Look at any verse in the Quran or element of Shariah that you believe is a straight forward declaration of how to live one's life, and I guarantee that you'll find hundreds of fatwas with the opposite opinion.
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i'm not sure you do, because you still think it's basically about 'conflict in their area'
this is sometimes true and sometimes not. the palestinian suicide bomber is most likely primarily influenced by 'conflict in their area'
osama bin laden was not. he was a rich kid from saudi arabia with no reason to become a terrorist. statistically, islamic terrorists are more wealthy and more educated than their peers in islamic society. the idea that it's all just economic strife and warfare that drives them to terrorism is just another fairy tale told in liberal mythology. most of the specific recruits that carried out 9/11 were likewise not poor disillusioned kids from palestine but true believers from europe and saudi arabia with decent lives and education.
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So the US's history of ****ing over the Middle East took no role in their decisions...right. Overthrowing a democratically elected leader and instituting a dictator would only anger the poor, rich kids wouldn't even give a **** about that. You make a solid point, friend.
My point was that many terrorists (bin Laden isn't the only one, you know) are largely retaliating against the US for all of the conflict that we've conflicted to their homelands (or against other countries, the US is just the most obvious example). Since religion is a large part of their culture (there's that word again) in that region, new recruits who already have a negative view of their enemy are given a justification to retaliate. No, it's not the case for every single terrorist, but that's representative of a good deal of the situation.
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right... had a feeling you would do that. the long list of links that i provided you with comes from a biased site. i was being lazy and/or intellectually honest in linking you to this icky biased site directly. i could've just went in and picked out the links that were from reputable sites and linked them all to you directly, and then you couldn't use the initial site i found them on as a reason to dismiss them. unfortunately i'm too lazy for any of that.
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I directly went to the sources and while they do somewhat hint at the point you were trying to make, they're nowhere near as alarming as that site makes them out to be. Just thought I'd point that out since you're too lazy to look into it and you might get some misinformed opinions on Islam (might be a little late for that though).